MiG 21 vs modern fighters

[GGTharos]

GG, I agree that given 2 equal pilots, in open airspace, the F15c destroys the Mig-21 hands down everytime.

 

The reason we enjoy fighting in the Mig-21 is because we are the underdog. We need to out-think our opponent and put ourselves in a position to strike. It knowing how to resist fighting and retreating, when we know we can't win.

 

Don't worry, I know. You guys are learning a pretty valuable lesson and you are applying it well. :)

 

I will never say the Mig-21 is a superior aircraft to the F-15c, its really not even close. But it comes down to pilots. A great pilot in an older airplane, is always better than a bad pilot in a good airplane. It comes down to tactics, and exploiting your advantages.

 

I can only say 'maybe'. I'll explain it like this: FC3 is a very basic reflection of reality. You would generally have a tough time hiding from an F-15 radar or from an AIM-7 or 120 or a 9, but in this game, you can evade FC3 radars with relative ease - that is to say, more easily than you should be able to. Not saying it's impossible, but you don't a great pilot to splash a great pilot who's flying a 21.

I won't go into it too deep except to say this: Yes, you are basically correct but you're also not fighting an organized, battle-commanded opponent.

You are, however, applying the tactics that would be expected in your situation and that's awesome :)

 

Its a much bigger rush I get when I close on an f15 or su27 with the Mig-21. And not all of the pilots I have shot down dont' know what they are doing. Once or twice I have taken down the highest scoring f15 pilot. How? using teamwork and ambushing.

 

Yep, I got the same when I shoot down a fighter when in the A-10A/C :)

 

Learning how to fight and kill with inferiror technology, only makes it easier when you have it. And many people forget the basic fundamentals when they use the F15 or Su-27. Its one of those "if its not on radar or rwr it doesn't exist. I have also seen some very bad dogfighting and BFM skills from those flying those modern jets. Mig-21 is a perfect training tool, to teach the basics again.

 

I disagree with the first sentence, more specifically, it doesn't matter what you're flying - a good instructor will teach you how to fight well. The plane doesn't matter as much. If you have to learn on your own though then yes, being the underdog forces you to adapt better.

 

But you're not learning basics in a MiG-21. Most people wouldn't know BFM if their lives depended on it - but they believe they do! :)

 

What you're learning is how to set up an ambush CAP and, really, if you've set up an ambush, that makes your life so much easier :)

[Why485]

yeah, i think everyone who flies the F-15 should go play IL2 battle of stalingrad or cliffs of dover for a few months and find out how terrible they actually are at combat

 

modern fighters, and i use the word fighters loosely, are designed to let the missile do all the fighting for them... the f-15 might be capable of fighting, but it rarely ever does when it can just lob missiles that automatically iff, lock, and track their target...

 

that doesn't mean i don't have fun flying FC3 planes, i fly them a lot, but when i do, i take the worst missiles they can carry. much more rewarding that way.

 

This is actually why I prefer flying the Su-27 and MiG-29 over the F-15C. The F-15C is just so boring to fly. I don't feel like I'm really doing anything because the AMRAAMs do all the work for you. There's just a lot less thought put into flying an F-15C effectively than there is with the Russian jets which have a more involved radar and rely primarily on SARH missiles.

 

GG, I agree that given 2 equal pilots, in open airspace, the F15c destroys the Mig-21 hands down everytime.

 

The reason we enjoy fighting in the Mig-21 is because we are the underdog. We need to out-think our opponent and put ourselves in a position to strike. It knowing how to resist fighting and retreating, when we know we can't win.

 

I will never say the Mig-21 is a superior aircraft to the F-15c, its really not even close. But it comes down to pilots. A great pilot in an older airplane, is always better than a bad pilot in a good airplane. It comes down to tactics, and exploiting your advantages.

 

Its a much bigger rush I get when I close on an f15 or su27 with the Mig-21. And not all of the pilots I have shot down dont' know what they are doing. Once or twice I have taken down the highest scoring f15 pilot. How? using teamwork and ambushing.

 

I also promise that anyone who learns to fight in the Mig-21 will make themselves a better pilot when they move up to the F15, Su-27, etc. Learning how to fight and kill with inferiror technology, only makes it easier when you have it. And many people forget the basic fundamentals when they use the F15 or Su-27. Its one of those "if its not on radar or rwr it doesn't exist. I have also seen some very bad dogfighting and BFM skills from those flying those modern jets. Mig-21 is a perfect training tool, to teach the basics again.

 

Completely agree. Very well said. I actually haven't touched the FC3 jets in a while because I'm having too much fun trying to do what I'm doing in the MiG-21. Now all we need is an F-104 or F-5 so the NATO guys can have just as much fun.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Why485

[ttaylor0024]

Been flying with ttaylor(TSquared), think we shot down 4 fighters between us both that day, you should join us. There's more strategy to formation flying. I find it interesting.

 

True story. After grouping up together with 2 random MiG-21s we formed a four-ship... Which was discovered quickly by an enemy full of F-15s and SU-27s. After some quick trash talk, we then found out it was 3 of them vs 4 of us, and the kill ratio ended 1:1, with one of each team going down as the 2 randoms that came with us bailed. I went low in a valley, fought my awful Saitek x52 drivers, and found an SU-27. He was close, so I quickly locked him and shot a missile in order to try a new strategy and get him on the defensive as he hears a missile coming his way. Must of scared him off, as he tried to RTB, in which I managed to get into firing range after a few minutes of racing after him. Launched my second R-3R and a few seconds later I see a SU-27 with one wing spinning out of control. MiG-21 can really hold its own in terms of speed.

 

 

Oh so that's why you recognized me! I was really confused by that. Next time I play I'll be sure to have my headset ready in case we meet again. Trying to coordinate a flight with text while flying is impossible, which is why I tended to go off on my own.

 

I kept mentioning the flopping fish.... Makes me laugh every time I think of that. Send me a PM and we can schedule when we are on. A school of fish(beds) is a group that can be very, very sneaky!

 

 

 

ALSO

What do you use for recording your gameplay? I tried using FRAPS real-time but it eats about 10-20fps, and I absolutely hate the replay tool because of how slow it is...

Edited December 9, 2014 by ttaylor0024

[lucien]

:)

 

 

 

:)

 

 

 

:)

 

 

 

 

 

:)

 

:)

 

Jesus :)

[Why485]

I kept mentioning the flopping fish.... Makes me laugh every time I think of that. Send me a PM and we can schedule when we are on. A school of fish(beds) is a group that can be very, very sneaky!

 

ALSO

What do you use for recording your gameplay? I tried using FRAPS real-time but it eats about 10-20fps, and I absolutely hate the replay tool because of how slow it is...

 

I play weekends mostly, but if I ever do play on weekdays it's late EST time (10PMish to ~2AM I guess?) I'll PM you (and lucien) my contact info so we can keep in touch.

 

I use Shadowplay. I think all Nvidia 7xx series and up support it. It's almost like a built in capture card and records footage at extremely high quality with virtually no performance loss. It's incredible and I use it for anything that would be too demanding to capture otherwise.

[ttaylor0024]

I use Shadowplay. I think all Nvidia 7xx series and up support it. It's almost like a built in capture card and records footage at extremely high quality with virtually no performance loss. It's incredible and I use it for anything that would be too demanding to capture otherwise.

 

REALLY making me want to upgrade my graphics card right now... haha

 

Let's turn this discussion to tactics to try to brainstorm a bit here. We all know that solo it's really about sticking in the weeds and ambushing, how about group tactics?

[SilentGun]

what heat seekers do you all use? I use the r-13i, for some reason it take's 2 r-60M's to kill anything.

[ttaylor0024]

what heat seekers do you all use? I use the r-13i, for some reason it take's 2 r-60M's to kill anything.

 

Most of us use the R-60M. It's the most agile IR missile the MiG-21 can handle at the expense of stopping power. If the first one doesn't kill, which happens from time to time, either launch another one or just go guns on the limping enemy. Works best against fighters I must say. If you're going up against bigger aircraft use the R-13M1, much more powerful, slightly longer range, just slightly less maneuverable.

[ff4life4]

I'll be done with finals next Sunday. You guys shoot me a pm and anytime after then I'd love to get together with people who know what their doing

[ttaylor0024]

I'll be done with finals next Sunday. You guys shoot me a pm and anytime after then I'd love to get together with people who know what their doing

 

I'm done on Friday. If I can figure out what the deal is with my x52 controller I will be on. The stick will basically act like it loses power for a split second every minute or two, and when it comes back on whatever stick position I had it at will be the new zero setting for it (if I'm pulling up and it flicks off then the pulled setting is neutral and if I neutralize the stick entirely then the aircraft goes into a dive). I think it's the programming software, but who knows. It was working 100% before I rebuilt my PC.

[Hadwell]

I'm done on Friday. If I can figure out what the deal is with my x52 controller I will be on. The stick will basically act like it loses power for a split second every minute or two, and when it comes back on whatever stick position I had it at will be the new zero setting for it (if I'm pulling up and it flicks off then the pulled setting is neutral and if I neutralize the stick entirely then the aircraft goes into a dive). I think it's the programming software, but who knows. It was working 100% before I rebuilt my PC.

 

the cable between the stick and the throttle is loose... the worst "feature" ever... being daisy chained to the throttle... if it ever goes off calibration like that, just unplug the stick from the throttle and plug it back in while its centered.

[ttaylor0024]

the cable between the stick and the throttle is loose... the worst "feature" ever... being daisy chained to the throttle... if it ever goes off calibration like that, just unplug the stick from the throttle and plug it back in while its centered.

 

That's what I do if I can have the time for it. It really sucks when in a dogfight. I think I've limited the problem to the SST programming software, and downloading an older version of it that people say works better. It only happens when I have a profile loaded, so hopefully this works.

[ff4life4]

Just had my first gunkill against a fighter. Believe it was an Su-33.

 

I should never have had to use guns. Wasted r-3rs because i launched them too far away (i thought he was approaching and they would hit, nope). THen i fired my R-60M but he was flaring like crazy and I couldn't get the damn thing to follow him, just kept chasing flares. All 4 R-60ms i tried, missed, he was good with the flares. But I got close with him, and after some maneuvering, I got a good solid burst on his midsection putting his 2 engines on fire and thats when i ran.

 

Was a blast. Mig21 had some really good low speed maneuverability, thats what did the trick.

[ttaylor0024]

Just had my first gunkill against a fighter. Believe it was an Su-33.

 

I should never have had to use guns. Wasted r-3rs because i launched them too far away (i thought he was approaching and they would hit, nope). THen i fired my R-60M but he was flaring like crazy and I couldn't get the damn thing to follow him, just kept chasing flares. All 4 R-60ms i tried, missed, he was good with the flares. But I got close with him, and after some maneuvering, I got a good solid burst on his midsection putting his 2 engines on fire and thats when i ran.

 

Was a blast. Mig21 had some really good low speed maneuverability, thats what did the trick.

 

I changed my software and went in the instant action dogfight against the F-4 to test this claim. Surprisingly, my controller didn't flicker off, and with emergency afterburner on I EASILY out-turned the F-4 and was on guns in seconds after he was on my 6. Full burner and the yellow AOA arc works pretty well

 

Unfortunately, my controller is doing the same thing again... Every time I try to change the driver Windows decides to auto-install the newest one. I'm going to try a few more things software wise, and have ordered a new PS/2 cable. So frustrating.

 

EDIT: after 2 hours of uninstalling, re-installing, and restarting I managed to finally get the correct drivers installed, and it's working perfectly!

 

 

Playing with the guns while testing the drivers has lead me to a realization- I have no idea how to use the gunsight in the ASP. I have it on Gun mode, and shooting, however the pipper won't calculate a proper lead for my target. I've tried radar locking, everything. Tips?

Edited December 9, 2014 by ttaylor0024

[Hadwell]

Playing with the guns while testing the drivers has lead me to a realization- I have no idea how to use the gunsight in the ASP. I have it on Gun mode, and shooting, however the pipper won't calculate a proper lead for my target. I've tried radar locking, everything. Tips?

 

so with the gunsight, you set the pipper to the wingspan of your target, i just set it to 15m, because the su-27 and su-33 wingspan is 15m, the f-15s is 13m, then when the targets wings touch the inside edges of the pipper, pull the trigger.

 

same way the gunsight in the p-51 and fw-190 work

Edited December 9, 2014 by Hadwell

[Why485]

Got two silent R-60M kills tonight against high flying F-15Cs not minding their contrails.

 

 

 

I had enough deaths that I stopped counting, but it's whatever. Practice, practice, practice.

And getting lucky finding dumb F-15 pilots.

 

[ttaylor0024]

so with the gunsight, you set the pipper to the wingspan of your target, i just set it to 15m, because the su-27 and su-33 wingspan is 15m, the f-15s is 13m, then when the targets wings touch the inside edges of the pipper, pull the trigger.

 

same way the gunsight in the p-51 and fw-190 work

 

Ah, I was thinking it had ranging information as well... Dang.

 

That instant action F-4 has really been feeling the pain tonight. The F-86 turned me into a fairly competent dogfighter

[*Rage*]

Getting F15 kills is always the most satisfying. I salute the guys doing it in Mig21s:thumbup:. Ive been shot down myself in a flanker. Once I get a handle on the 27 PFM ill be joining you:pilotfly:

Edited December 9, 2014 by ///Rage

[ff4life4]

Got two silent R-60M kills tonight against high flying F-15Cs not minding their contrails.

 

 

Nice kills Why485, and I'm glad you remembered to screenshot, I never remember, always too focused.

 

Don't worry about the high number of deaths. Its expected when your flying an ASM jet on 1960's vs 1980's+? jet with keyboard controls. As you get more kills you will learn what tactics work better for you and what doesn't. Also, luck is also factor in this.

 

It was a nice flying that sortie with you last night. We went up against 2 enemy fighters. We both got shot down but at least one of the opponents didn't make it back either.

[ff4life4]

Ah, I was thinking it had ranging information as well... Dang.

 

That instant action F-4 has really been feeling the pain tonight. The F-86 turned me into a fairly competent dogfighter

 

No unfortunately the Sabre with its ranging radar is 10x better than the Mig for making a guns solution. The Mig-21 sight is set for 300m! Thats extremely close.

 

Personally I have only been using the fixed net, but I will try with the gyro sight to help. Mig-21 cannon is basically like a pistol though, not a lot of punch and you gotta get up close. Also its very accurate, which is great for A/G, but not for A/A. I like the f15 gun as it disperses, kinda acts like a shotgun. Not to mention the gun-site for it is phenomenal.

 

 

And yes Sabre/P51 taught me good decent dogfighting and BFM skills as well. Has been unbelievebly handy in multi with the Mig. Not just for dogfighting into a gunkill, but its helped immensely with what do do after I merge with someone. I have usually been able to get on their 6, or at least rear hemisphere for an r-60 shot. Many of those guys have made huge mistakes after the merge which gives me an advantage. Mig21 sucks at sustained turning, but I've noticed that at high speed I have one solid turn I can make, and its really gotta count

Edited December 9, 2014 by ff4life4

[GGTharos]

You should expect to get killed even more by ASM jets from the 80+'s actually. The systems in the FC3 jets are under-modeled in their fire control capabilities just to name one thing.

 

It is a great misconception that people believe fighting against a modern jet with ASM would be easier than fighting a modern jet with SSM.

 

Don't worry about the high number of deaths. Its expected when your flying an ASM jet on 1960's vs 1980's+? jet with keyboard controls. As you get more kills you will learn what tactics work better for you and what doesn't. Also, luck is also factor in this.

[ff4life4]

I understand. But i was more referring to the fact that someone in an F15c can find you on RWR, press "3" and just point at you, it will lock on anything under 10 miles, and fire 8 slammers in a row at you.

 

While with ASM on the Mig-21, in a short timespan you need to use the finicky radar, IFF target, lock target, setup which pylons to fire, IR/SAR, visually acquire enemy, while tracking range and firing solution. Theres more to it.

 

And yes an ASM f15c I would hope would have more capability, but someone is going to need to have their systems knowledge very high in order to use that capability. A huge growing pain of the Mig21 is learning how to deal with the many steps involved with getting a missile off on a target, and do it under a lot of stress in close proximity to the enemy. It would be a ton easier if i could just push 3 and lockup anything within almost the max range of the mig21 radar.

[GGTharos]

I understand. But i was more referring to the fact that someone in an F15c can find you on RWR, press "3" and just point at you, it will lock on anything under 10 miles, and fire 8 slammers in a row at you.

 

It's exactly how it works in the real deal. In fact, they have even better AACQ modes than what's available right now (larger scan area, fast). The FCS automatically operates several radar parameters as well.

 

While with ASM on the Mig-21, in a short timespan you need to use the finicky radar, IFF target, lock target, setup which pylons to fire, IR/SAR, visually acquire enemy, while tracking range and firing solution. Theres more to it.

 

If by that you mean 'the systems suck by comparison', I agree. It is old technology after all, and while it may have been great 'back in the time', even then there were attempts at automation (eg. boresight locks in F-4's, and you had the RIO to make things go faster etc).

 

And yes an ASM f15c I would hope would have more capability, but someone is going to need to have their systems knowledge very high in order to use that capability. A huge growing pain of the Mig21 is learning how to deal with the many steps involved with getting a missile off on a target, and do it under a lot of stress in close proximity to the enemy. It would be a ton easier if i could just push 3 and lockup anything within almost the max range of the mig21 radar.

 

Again, all you need to know in the F-15 to lock things up and start shooting at stuff is like this (Assuming ASM):

 

1. Power up your jet (You can do the auto-startup, so not much to know there)

2. Turn on radar (you do this in FC3 too)

3. Select AACQ mode - you really only need super-search (You do this in FC3 too, but ASM would have more of them)

4. Fly a 360, wait for lock indication.

5. Launch missile.

 

Now, is that terribly effective? Sure, if you're flying against people who really, really know about as much as "you" (As in that newb F-15 pilot) with respect to what they're doing :)

Realistically though, it has been used that way in RL, too.

[ff4life4]

Well I don't know much about the F15c in RL, other than what I know from FC3, so if thats true, then I'll agree with your assessment that its harder to fight against an ASM F15c.

 

Believe me I know MiG-21 should suck against F15c. I know that story about the 2 F-18c that shot down 2 MiG-21 without even dropping their bombs.

 

As an American, I truly hope in RL that our jets would have no problem taking down something like an MiG-21, or really any other aircraft for that matter.

 

But I think we are towing the line in this thread too close between game and RL. Mig-21 in real life should get shot down everytime against an F-15c.

 

The accomplishments we have here are from us flying mostly 1 on 1 vs other "modern" jets in an unorganized battle setting, with an old weapons platform that has a max missile range of effectively 2-3 miles, with a radar scan range of 15 miles, vs a modern jet with a scan range of 40+ miles, and missile range of 20+ miles. We are just happy in our accomplishments of using better tactics than our adversaries, and always catching them with their pants down. Its extremely difficult to fight against an f15 or su27 with the Mig-21 (in DCS) and thats why we are proud of what we can accomplish.

[GGTharos]

But I think we are towing the line in this thread too close between game and RL. Mig-21 in real life should get shot down everytime against an F-15c.

 

Not if they flew like the online crowd! :D

But in any case, in RL, the USAF had DACT training available, including against a MiG-21 (it was one of those Area 51 UFOs back in the day), to give their pilots experience/training in fighting a known opponent, for example.

 

The accomplishments we have here are from us flying mostly 1 on 1 vs other "modern" jets in an unorganized battle setting, with an old weapons platform that has a max missile range of effectively 2-3 miles, with a radar scan range of 15 miles, vs a modern jet with a scan range of 40+ miles, and missile range of 20+ miles. We are just happy in our accomplishments of using better tactics than our adversaries, and always catching them with their pants down. Its extremely difficult to fight against an f15 or su27 with the Mig-21 (in DCS) and thats why we are proud of what we can accomplish.

 

I know. And really, that's the way those planes should be used - wait for the enemy to come to you, if possible use external cueing to get into an advantageous position. Or, get as many of your old planes as you can and make a mach 2 dash at the enemy tanker/AWACS. If you have enough of those planes and you do the raid right (ie. all together, not piecemeal) some could get through - again, potential real life tactic :)