Why485

It might require matching the OP's graphics settings in order to make the bug visible. This feels like something related to the LOD system.

This is a great post and video detailing this issue. A lot of new information here.

This is still an issue as of 2.9.4.5349.

Put me in the screenshot.

It was added after ED didn't get impostor system right on their first try, so they silently threw the whole thing out and replaced it with a dot system where a one pixel dot was visible whenever the object was drawn regardless of the distance. This meant that these dots were visible out to 30-40 miles (the approximate max draw distance for objects), and got bigger the lower your resolution was set. This system was around for several years. It was then replaced with the current system, which puts a cap on the distance these dots are rendered, while also seeking to address the resolution issue. For the majority of people this seems good enough, but there are edge cases, mostly in VR, where the scaling doesn't quite work. There's also a bug that makes the dot visible beyond ranges it should be. While I don't think the dots are perfect by any means, and in fact I think a purely dot based approach is not the best idea, this is still probably the best DCS has been with regards to spotting. Even ignoring the bugs, they are a bit too strong, and if we are always going to be stuck with a dot based system, then I think some bug fixes and tweaks would go a long way towards making it so good you don't even notice it's doing anything.

I was disappointed too, as ED own the engine and so are able to do something much better than what I did. They didn't copy the mod 1:1, more like re-implemented it natively and at a lower level in the engine, with a couple improvements. I've detailed out my impressions and differences I've noticed in this post. The new spotting is an improvement over what was in the game before, but I'd like to see them go much further and make something better. The official line is that the current system will be looked at, but there has been no communication beyond that, nor any clue as to what their intent is or what they even see as the issue to be fixed.

It does matter, because certain situations can make the dot more or less visible even if the logic for what "triggers" the dot is the same across all of them. I ended up creating a similar lighting situation to your screenshot and the dot is more visible compared to my main spotting test scenario. I expected the combination of lens flare and atmospherics to make the dot more washed out than it was. It's just another data point to add to how the dots work. For the record, I used a Su-27 (in your example it was either Su-27 or MiG-29) and the dot is fully opaque at ~10 miles and then fades beyond that. I'm not saying anything changed. I test this after every patch because ED has a history of changing spotting without any patch notes. I just think it's an interesting test case.

What distance? What plane? The terrain affects this too. The sun is too low for 10:00 at the default June date, so that's not exactly right either.

Can you post this test mission? That's a very specific lighting and altitude/aspect setup that I'd like to add to my battery of spotting tests.

This is a good post, thank you. This is one of the things that I feel like I haven't been getting across. "Spotting" is a complex subject with a lot of nuance but in these discussions it all too often gets turned into cartoon strawmen and people completely talking past each other.

This isn't so much aimed at you, more so whatever audience for this discussion might be left, however it's a great point to respond to as it's a common sentiment I've seen. In a good spotting system, you will still lose sight against a noisy background and ground clutter. Keeping track of the target in a fight would still be a skill that takes practice. A good spotting system aims to provide realistic results, and I've given examples of what those realistic results should look like many times in the past. E.g. for WWII planes, these are good reference numbers. Even with the current (new) and flawed system, you still regularly see people talk about how they lose sight or have difficulty spotting and what people like me are advocating for will in all likelihood make spotting more difficult than it is now. My favorite discussion on the topic is somebody saying to me (paraphrasing), "Back in ye olden days of a certain WWII flight simulator from the turn of the millennium, we didn't need any kind of dots. Why do we need them now?" And like, that was pure *chef's kiss* because not only did this beloved WWII flight sim have dots, but it also used a basic form of scaling through creative LOD rendering. For the record, the distances planes became visible in ideal conditions matched the above cited numbers. That's what I'm after. When these sorts of systems are done right, you won't notice it's doing anything at all.

No, nothing has changed as far as I can tell. It sounds like you forgot to restart the game after changing the setting. It doesn't take effect until after a restart.

As of 2.9.2.49629 the issue of dots being visible when they are in front of clouds at extreme distances is still present. This bug is responsible for some of the "false positives" in people seeing dots at further distances than intended. I've already reported this, but the thread has had no reaction from ED.

This is still an issue as of 2.9.2.49629.

No, it's not for me. It's to make this as easy as possible for ED because the more guesswork they have to do to debug this the less likely it is to get fixed. I have a vested interest in seeing these bugs get fixed, and having the exact settings removes any ambiguity and ensures nothing is missed.

Posting a screenshot of your settings page would be better, but that's pretty compelling evidence of the issues. That's a great video.

Are there any plans to have this addressed or looked at?

As far as I can tell, putting the new setting to off renders dots with exactly the same logic as it did in 2.8.

No, a one pixel dot was drawn on every dynamic object in the world as long as the object was being rendered, which depending on the model's max render distance and your FOV could be as far as 40 miles away. That was the entire system. It was very simple.

All of your "now" pictures look like the "improved spotting dot" option set to OFF. It's not stated anywhere, but the setting doesn't take effect unless you restart DCS completely. If all the "now" tests were done in the same DCS session, without restarting DCS, your results will be off. Every patch I run my own set of spotting tests, just in case something was changed and not mentioned in the changelog, and I didn't notice any changes with last week's patch. Agreed on this though. 10km is optimistic for a WWII fighter. From a 1944 Soviet Army for artillerymen to estimate range based on spotting aircraft: http://airpages.ru/mn/scout_02.shtml

Dots fade out with distance (this is good) but if they are in front of clouds, they appear to "punch a hole" through them and show the color behind the clouds, making them visible even though they should be faded out. BugCloudDot.trk BugCloudDot.miz

FYI changing the "IMPROVED SPOTTING DOT" setting requires you restart DCS in order to see the effects.

These are the same thing. Anyway, I really, really wish we could get some insight into what ED is trying to accomplish here. I was pleasantly surprised to see that spotting was mentioned in last weeks newsletter but in the end all they did was point out the new option. I can only speculate what their goal is, and everybody here (including myself) is judging this all based on completely arbitrary measures and assumed goals. The only clue we've got so far is that they recognize this current iteration doesn't work well in VR.

FYI the setting doesn't take effect until you restart DCS.

Also FYI, after changing the option you need to restart DCS. It doesn't apply immediately.