MiG 21 vs modern fighters

[ff4life4]

Not if they flew like the online crowd! :D

 

:megalol::rotflmao:

[ttaylor0024]

Couldn't choose which enemy I wanted to take out, kept switching between them, then both drop off the radar.... Decide to RTB, as I'm 180nm from home and 1500L of fuel. I have about 20nm left when I hear the tone and evade 2 AMRAAMs.... and then get smacked by an AIM-9 a few minutes later.

Edited December 9, 2014 by ttaylor0024

[lucien]

Not if they flew like the online crowd! :D

But in any case, in RL, the USAF had DACT training available, including against a MiG-21 (it was one of those Area 51 UFOs back in the day), to give their pilots experience/training in fighting a known opponent, for example.

 

 

 

I know. And really, that's the way those planes should be used - wait for the enemy to come to you, if possible use external cueing to get into an advantageous position. Or, get as many of your old planes as you can and make a mach 2 dash at the enemy tanker/AWACS. If you have enough of those planes and you do the raid right (ie. all together, not piecemeal) some could get through - again, potential real life tactic :)

 

Yes, but what's your ingame name

 

Couldn't choose which enemy I wanted to take out, kept switching between them, then both drop off the radar.... Decide to RTB, as I'm 180nm from home and 1500L of fuel. I have about 20nm left when I hear the tone and evade 2 AMRAAMs.... and then get smacked by an AIM-9 a few minutes later.

 

If you dive down a couple hundred meters they tend to magically reappear on the radar, unless they went behind a mountain.

[ttaylor0024]

 

If you dive down a couple hundred meters they tend to magically reappear on the radar, unless they went behind a mountain.

 

I was on the deck. I'm pretty sure they were too high for the radar, as I could only get jamming signals, no target when the filter was on

[GGTharos]

That's for me to know and you to wonder about :)

 

Yes, but what's your ingame name

[GGTharos]

I don't know if/how LN modeled this, but if you're on the deck you might be self-jamming.

 

I was on the deck. I'm pretty sure they were too high for the radar, as I could only get jamming signals, no target when the filter was on

[lucien]

I was on the deck. I'm pretty sure they were too high for the radar, as I could only get jamming signals, no target when the filter was on

 

What portion of the radar was the target on when he disappeared?

 

That's for me to know and you to wonder about :)

 

Well I can't send an R-3r at your face if I don't know your name, sir.

 

I don't know if/how LN modeled this, but if you're on the deck you might be self-jamming.

 

nah this isn't modeled

[GGTharos]

Well I can't send an R-3r at your face if I don't know your name, sir.

 

Sure you can ... try. :D

 

nah this isn't modeled

 

Ok thanks. Common problem for a lot of radars, worse for some, better for others.

[ttaylor0024]

What portion of the radar was the target on when he disappeared?

 

 

 

These were about half a second apart.

 

Side note, didn't know MSI Afterburner includes screen recording software. Works great!

[lucien]

 

 

These were about half a second apart.

 

Side note, didn't know MSI Afterburner includes screen recording software. Works great!

 

well that's the problem. He was jamming so he could have been high or low, or in a complete dive and our radar would be completely clueless of this.

[ttaylor0024]

well that's the problem. He was jamming so he could have been high or low, or in a complete dive and our radar would be completely clueless of this.

 

He definitely wasn't any lower, he would have been below the ground in that case. The last ping I had and was able to verify was 25km, which was about 30s before this. He dropped off the radar and I was working it to get him back on, which explains why you could see the jam. Even at a -1.5* tilt, 25km distance can see 423.7m below you, or roughly 1,271' below your antenna, in which I was well below that altitude, so ground would take its place. Alternatively, he had to just be above 5000m (~16,000ft) to be out of my 15* up angle, which is pretty standard. Didn't think about the alternative until after I disengaged.

[scaflight]

I'll hit some of you up after I'm done with my exams, hope to get large-ish Fishbed formations going. :)

 

MSI Afterburner is a great kit, absolutely.

 

Now, it is pretty preposterous for our scope to not give vertical information when the target is unlocked. Was this a real restraint of the technology, or just as massively a hit and miss design-wise as the RWR's presumptuous lack of direction indication?

[Why485]

It tells you if he's above or below you based on where the vertical tick marks are, which to be honest is more info than the Flanker/Fulcrum will tell you at a glance.

 

What I'm most annoyed about the radar not showing is direction or speed. You can guess if somebody is a head on aspect based on how fast your DLZ moves, but that's it. At a distance it's very hard to tell and by the time you've figured it out it could be too late. That's something that cost me last night as I wasn't sure if the target I had locked was head on and locking me or if that was somebody else.

 

My biggest problem with the MiG-21 from a systems point of view is the damn RWR. I get annoyed enough about the way the modern Russian RWR works, but the Fishbed's becomes completely worthless once you are fully locked. You have no idea where the lock is coming from if you didn't see a spike beforehand and once you start maneuvering you're relying on guesses and terrain masking to try and figure out where it's coming from.

[Darkwolf]

While with ASM on the Mig-21, in a short timespan you need to use the finicky radar, IFF target, lock target, setup which pylons to fire, IR/SAR, visually acquire enemy, while tracking range and firing solution. Theres more to it.

 

Actually, I setup my pylons at first. AA mode, SAR and my R3R pylons. So when engaging, I don't have to mind too much for that.

 

 

regarding RWR, I use it to home on target. ID is really tricky but here is some tips :

 

Put your target on 90°, bank 45°. If it's still on, you have an aircraft contact. I go left and right to pin point the source correctly. If it lock, just run back your base. Of course, that gives you a very rough guess, but hell - instead of thinking "I wish I could have a F15 RWR", I just keep positive and think "Hey, that's better than the P51 RWR that doesn't exist :P".

 

 

 

I played a lot of submarine games to guess a target location only on tiny indication :P That help now. On a general basis, studying the mission helps finding targets - most of the crowd just go from Allied airport to Ennemi airport, without even thinking of anything else.

[ttaylor0024]

I'll hit some of you up after I'm done with my exams, hope to get large-ish Fishbed formations going. :)

 

MSI Afterburner is a great kit, absolutely.

 

Now, it is pretty preposterous for our scope to not give vertical information when the target is unlocked. Was this a real restraint of the technology, or just as massively a hit and miss design-wise as the RWR's presumptuous lack of direction indication?

 

Just a group 10 fishbed in a big delta formation would be awesome.... Until 1 F-15 takes all of us out in 1 volley! Jk, we would be pretty tough.

 

The inverted T is okay in terms of altitude of the Enemy, but in all reality it doesn't do anything for us. It's fairly uncommon to see a regular T.

 

 

My biggest problem with the MiG-21 from a systems point of view is the damn RWR. I get annoyed enough about the way the modern Russian RWR works, but the Fishbed's becomes completely worthless once you are fully locked. You have no idea where the lock is coming from if you didn't see a spike beforehand and once you start maneuvering you're relying on guesses and terrain masking to try and figure out where it's coming from.

 

Designers had too much vodka when building I think... It would be much better if we just had the launch tone with a solid light in the direction of the radar emissions. Something so simple that fails so hard.

 

Actually, I setup my pylons at first. AA mode, SAR and my R3R pylons. So when engaging, I don't have to mind too much for that.

 

 

regarding RWR, I use it to home on target. ID is really tricky but here is some tips :

 

Put your target on 90°, bank 45°. If it's still on, you have an aircraft contact. I go left and right to pin point the source correctly. If it lock, just run back your base. Of course, that gives you a very rough guess, but hell - instead of thinking "I wish I could have a F15 RWR", I just keep positive and think "Hey, that's better than the P51 RWR that doesn't exist :P

 

I agree with the weapons setup before entering the AO, makes life much easier. Knowing how the RWR operates is a bonus, I've used the blind zones a few times to help find enemies. Doesn't the P-51 have a radar warning system? Obviously not advanced my any means, but in pretty sure it had that annoying bell and light to the left of the gunsight controls.

[ff4life4]

The RWR sucks, but I can see where Russian design occured. Mig-21 was their first jet with radar I believe. Missiles they had developed at the time were only good in the visual range. So they figured that once you were locked that you could visually spot them. It was just to let you know you may have a missile on you.

 

I don't know this is for fact, just my guess after using Mig21 for a while. Also Mig-21 was designed for use with GCI so they would alert you to threats and vector you in.

 

For me it really sucked jumping from an A-10c and F-15 rwr, especially with the RWR tone mod. It gave you a ton of situational awareness. I at first thought the Mig-21 rwr was useless. Its really not. Yes its nowhere near the level of complexity of the A10c, and I would love to have even the Russian rwr in the FC3, but simply having an Rwr is better than nothing. Just gotta learn to use 45 degree angles to desicpher target height. Also if you are close to terrain, which you should be with Mig-21, when you get a lock you have to fly past terrain, and if you duck below a ridge you know where hes coming from. Now its just a matter of ambushing him while hes likely going to barge over the ridge looking for you. Also its rare i just get a straight lock tone. I usually pick up lighter indications before hand, so I have a general idea of where he is.

 

 

Doesn't the P-51 have a radar warning system? Obviously not advanced my any means, but in pretty sure it had that annoying bell and light to the left of the gunsight controls.

 

That system is a rear looking radar IIRC. It only lets you know when someone is at your 6, nothing to do iwth radar.

[Hadwell]

 

 

That system is a rear looking radar IIRC. It only lets you know when someone is at your 6, nothing to do iwth radar.

 

might be for rear, but it seems to go off if even the slightest like radar signal thats bounced off 3 mountains, 2 A-10s and a seagull before it hits the p-51....

[ttaylor0024]

 

 

Not a bad flight today with lucien. Overall we went 1:2 trying out new tactics. Also need to figure out how to record skype audio alongside the game...

Edited December 10, 2014 by ttaylor0024

[ff4life4]

Nice job. I'll have to join you guys along with Why. We can have 4 ship

[Why485]

These kinds of deaths are the most annoying, because I know that I could have easily defeated this AMRAAM with a better RWR.

 

 

Aside from this death though, I went 1-1 tonight with that one kill being an amazing one. I defended against two incoming missiles from a Flanker, merged, and Immelmaned into an R-60 kill.

 

Most satisfying thing I've ever done in DCS. It was such a great kill. If I can get some awesome formation and/or low flying footage tomorrow with taylor and lucien, I'm going to be putting together a MiG-21 video of all these kills.

 

[ttaylor0024]

These kinds of deaths are the most annoying, because I know that I could have easily defeated this AMRAAM with a better RWR.

 

 

When you can see the missile has missing textures you know you're in for pain.

[Darkwolf]

you don't defeat R27. They are just designed to miss you :P Just Kidding, great screen.

 

 

 

but in pretty sure it had that annoying bell and light to the left of the gunsight controls.

 

That's a Tail Radar. Useful tho. I thing It has a RWR but not implemented. Ok Hitting RWR P51 in google just get me in my own yesterday's message. --->[]

[scaflight]

Ttaylor: Nice one! But I think Rifle is for A2G missiles. You'd call Fox One I think for SAR, Fox Two for IR.

[ttaylor0024]

Ttaylor: Nice one! But I think Rifle is for A2G missiles. You'd call Fox One I think for SAR, Fox Two for IR.

 

I'm still used to the A-10, old habits die hard! I just like how quickly I reaquire the target and fire, much better looking than done other kills.

[ff4life4]

Same with me, I tend to call Rifle a lot.

 

That was smooth as far as mechanics go. Was a nice splash. R-3Rs are wonderful. I think ill call them slammers instead. Seem more reliable than the Aim-120 right now lol.

 

Glad to see you guys are as addicted to this as much as I am.