MiG 21 vs modern fighters

[GGTharos]

Jamming doesn't really work like it should anyway. If it were implemented correctly, youd'd lock a target and the lock would drop almost right away, and no filter would help you (because the jammer is modern by comparison).

 

The process isn't, but should be:

 

RWR sends data to ECM suite -> If RWR indicates lock -> ECM suite activates and attempts the most appropriate lock-breaking technique for x seconds against that target -> ECM stops -> RWR sends data to ECM suite

 

It would be annoying on a different level :)

[ff4life4]

Yeah I know the jamming is completely unrealistic in DCS.

 

I remember reading a book about a pilot in Vietnam. His backseater in an F4 locked a B-52, and he said like 100 false targets appeared in scope, and the ranging gate was pulled off the screen. He told him to never lock them again lol.

 

EDIT: And its another reason to get more comfy with IR missiles, if they ever implement proper ECM. And of course know the Gun well, it can't be decoyed :). At least not yet untill they have a laser shooting the bullets themselves lol

[ff4life4]

I'd imagine if they implemented the Towed decoys for the fighters it would cause hell for us as well

[GGTharos]

ECM also tends to run pretty hot... :D

 

With regards to towed decoys - yes, but that's mostly a very modern fighter feature. Superhornet, EF2000 ... and bombers.

 

Another thing that could be modeled is flying decoys, either ground or air-launched.

[ff4life4]

I believe the F-16 has them as well. In Viper Pilot the guy mentioned using them all the time Wild Weaseling

[GGTharos]

That would be a 'special option' for the wild-weasel most likely in that case.

[lucien]

IFF don't run well in scan mode. I have a friendly fire due to this.

 

I also nearly shot a friendly today but I lost the target. hopefully I found out he was friendly:smartass:

 

For now, I shoot first, ask question later. SA is very important. Don't hesitate to text while engaging jammed targets.

 

Shot down a friendly today. 1 jamming enemy and 1 jamming friendly in close formation, my gate was on the edge of the enemy, so I locked him up, come to find out it was somehow my ally that I locked up. Interesting how that works. Serious disadvantage being unable to IFF during lock.

 

For me IFF has been 100% reliable. And if a target is jamming I'll spam filters till I can see them, and then I can iff them

 

Middle filter seems to be the go-to button.

 

The jamming filter works extraordinarily well and so do IFF checks during jam. It makes jamming practically ineffective against the MiG-21. The only reason to not just fly with the jam filter on 100% of the time is because locking non-jamming targets becomes more difficult because you can't move the locking gate.

 

When locking a jamming target, it doesn't matter where the lock gate is, which is why it locks it in place with that filter on. To lock a non-jamming target, you have to specifically put the cursor over them, and because of that I've had trouble locking non-jamming targets with the filter active.

 

And you lose any other filters you have on as well, except the low altitude filter.

 

I need to learn to resist the urge to fire 2 in a row. Just it gets intense during the engagements, just need to remember to relax a bit more.

 

IIRC, I have had the R-3Rs fall off before the double R-60s. But anyway, if you pull enough G's to pull the missiles off, I really believe your over G'ing the airplane. But I'm not 100% sure I need to refer to the manual.

 

And normally its one (or two) r-3rs and done but for some reason I have ended up merging with the enemies more, and having to resort to IR missiles when they hit the deck and I can't get a lock on them due to ground clutter. And if they are maneuvering like crazy I have only been able to successfully use the R-60 on them. Can't get a succesfull lock and hold it with the radar if they are jumping around

 

It only started to do this in the latest update. Love losing my missiles in peak moments of a dogfight. Its wonderful.

 

Make sure you're close enough and you shouldn't need to launch 2. I'll only launch 2 if he turns back around at me, launching one to make him rethink his decision, and then the second is the kill missile.

[lucien]

2 x 2 kill sorties

[scaflight]

2 x 2 kill sorties

 

Very nice! I feel I must remark on some things, but my knowledge is limited so feel free to criticise. Assuming that is you: You wait an awful long time with firing the R3s when the bogey is coming straight for. The distance pippers aren't a terribly important measure, so long as they're headed into the center at a fast enough rate. Also, you place the target always a bit above crosshairs. I think you should ideally head straight onto it unless there's any chance of the target diving to use ground clutter, especially since it aids with acquiring a visual. Tossing the nose up before firing should afford the missile a bit more energy, so aiming constantly below the enemy seems like it'll often sap a bit of the edge from you.

 

I could be wrong on all accounts.

[lucien]

Very nice! I feel I must remark on some things, but my knowledge is limited so feel free to criticise. Assuming that is you: You wait an awful long time with firing the R3s when the bogey is coming straight for. The distance pippers aren't a terribly important measure, so long as they're headed into the center at a fast enough rate. Also, you place the target always a bit above crosshairs. I think you should ideally head straight onto it unless there's any chance of the target diving to use ground clutter, especially since it aids with acquiring a visual. Tossing the nose up before firing should afford the missile a bit more energy, so aiming constantly below the enemy seems like it'll often sap a bit of the edge from you.

 

I could be wrong on all accounts.

 

no need to fire out of range if you're not in danger. and the radar is upward looking, I find it is easier to maintain lock if they're above your nose.

[ttaylor0024]

Well, that one hurt a lot... Was on the 104th and found a SU-27 close head-on. Locked and launched an R-3R and actually had it go stupid. Never lost lock and I have no clue where it went off to. Tried to launch the 2nd but it wouldn't come off the rail (everything was checked, and double checked before takeoff to be hot).Needless to say, after the head on we both began maneuvering. I decided to experiment with the 2x R-3R and 4x R-60M, and even with emergency afterburner I couldn't do ANYTHING. Aircraft was extremely sluggish and slow, was buffeting through turns and promptly got an R-73 to the knee. I'm so disappointed in myself.

[Why485]

I don't know, you should pretty much never win a dogfight against a Flanker. Especially if he uses his missiles. The one time I've survived and killed a Flanker after the merge I was both elated and wondering why he let me do that. In that fight, if I didn't have the R-60s I wouldn't have killed him either because there's just no time to try and get your radar to lock at that close range.

[ttaylor0024]

I don't know, you should pretty much never win a dogfight against a Flanker. Especially if he uses his missiles. The one time I've survived and killed a Flanker after the merge I was both elated and wondering why he let me do that. In that fight, if I didn't have the R-60s I wouldn't have killed him either because there's just no time to try and get your radar to lock at that close range.

 

I've had success in locked beam mode against an F-15 before. My tactic with it is to simply point my gun-sight at the enemy and press the lock key. If it's a good lock then you will get tone. Slightly more difficult if you're aiming down at him though, you'll have to watch out for ground targets.

 

My issue was the extra weight of the R-60Ms that I usually don't carry. They say in emergency afterburner the MiG-21 is roughly as agile as the F-16, and I'm close to believing that, however it's still a slight overstatement. I can easily turn with F-15s, but if the fight goes vertical you really have to be careful and unload G to keep your speed up.

[GGTharos]

It isn't even close. At least not with a modern, A2A configured F-16, and the MiG-21 certainly doesn't have the thrust to hang in a turn with an F-15 - that said, a good pilot could compensate if the other guy cooperates.

 

They say in emergency afterburner the MiG-21 is roughly as agile as the F-16, and I'm close to believing that, however it's still a slight overstatement. I can easily turn with F-15s, but if the fight goes vertical you really have to be careful and unload G to keep your speed up.

[lucien]

It isn't even close. At least not with a modern, A2A configured F-16, and the MiG-21 certainly doesn't have the thrust to hang in a turn with an F-15 - that said, a good pilot could compensate if the other guy cooperates.

 

On the contrary, F-15C has a thrust to weight ratio of 1.03, while the MiG 21 is (roughly) 1.09 with emergency afterburners enabled. So yes, it can hang in a turn.

[GGTharos]

Try it and see how it works out for you :)

 

You'll need a human flying the other plane though :)

 

On the contrary, F-15C has a thrust to weight ratio of 1.03, while the MiG 21 is (roughly) 1.09 with emergency afterburners enabled. So yes, it can hang in a turn.

[lucien]

Try it and see how it works out for you :)

 

You'll need a human flying the other plane though :)

 

It's already worked out for me :P

 

 

This further shortens the already limited cycle time of Soviet made engines between industrial-level overhauls and adds great cost, but the extreme thrust of CSR allowed the MiG-21bis to reach a better than 1:1 thrust-to-weight ratio for dogfight and outclimb the F-16. Yet, the older generation plane did not possess the advanced electronics suite and missiles of its rivals and its only success was a Syrian MiG-21bis damaging an F-15A Eagle during the 1982 war.

[GGTharos]

Then you weren't fighting someone who knows what they're doing. :)

 

It's already worked out for me :P

[ff4life4]

Then you weren't fighting someone who knows what they're doing. :)

 

I must say its upsetting how many times I beat someone after a merge with the 21.

 

Although on second thought, I don't mind, I love firing the R-60M up the tail of an F15

[GGTharos]

People can easily lose sight or not know what to do.

 

If you run into an F-15C with no belly tank, and you assume he just dropped it right now, you're fighting a 1.15TWR aircraft (note TWR is an incredibly simplistic view of things). If he's got any less fuel than full internal, you're usually looking at 1.20+ TWR. All he has to do is throw it into a sustained turn at combat speed and all you can do is hope to scare him into making a mistake.

 

Disclaimer: The end result depends on merge parameters, pilots not losing sight, having a plan, BFM skill etc. etc.

[ttaylor0024]

F-15 poops all over the MiG-21 with pilots of equal skill.

[Hadwell]

F-15 that's already on a mig-21 that's low and slow of coarse the mig-21 has no escape, but there's no such thing as pilots with equal skill, and luck, the cause-and-effect chain from some dude farting in china in 1965, etc... could make all the difference

 

 

but that's cause the mig-21 isn't a fighter.... it's designed to catch big assed bombers super quickly(interceptor)... hence the ambush tactics and all the streight-line zoom climbs..

Edited December 15, 2014 by Hadwell

[dartuil]

And if mig21 get lancerC update will it be that hard to fight a flanker or eagle?

Or mig21 will stay hard to manoeuver? ( I believe lancer fishbed are more manœuvrable).

[Hadwell]

And if mig21 get lancerC update will it be that hard to fight a flanker or eagle?

Or mig21 will stay hard to manoeuver? ( I believe lancer fishbed are more manœuvrable).

 

nah its still the same basic concept, it might be a bit more manuverable, but it's still nothing more than a flying engine with some pylons attached to its sides....

 

the modern electronics and missiles would make it so getting into those kinds of situations where you might have to fight are more rare though...

[ttaylor0024]

F-15 that's already on a mig-21 that's low and slow of coarse the mig-21 has no escape, but there's no such thing as pilots with equal skill, and luck, the cause-and-effect chain from some dude farting in china in 1965, etc... could make all the difference

 

There is such thing as better aircraft, and there's a reason the Air Force uses the F-15 over any other aircraft. Its combat record is spotless. You wouldn't be able to pay me enough money to fly a MiG-21 in combat in real life, it would be a suicide mission. I will keep flying it online enough against Gen 4s because I enjoy the challenge and most others online (with the exception of a few) don't know how to effectively employ the Gen 4s, and on top of that, don't know how MiG-21 drivers fly.

 

 

And if mig21 get lancerC update will it be that hard to fight a flanker or eagle?

Or mig21 will stay hard to manoeuver? ( I believe lancer fishbed are more manœuvrable).

 

It comes down to flight characteristics. The MiG-21 isn't made to be agile. You can count on one hand how many cannon kills the MiG-21 has, it just wasn't made to purely dogfight vs a frame of the Eagle which was solely designed for A2A combat.