Secret to getting kills in the F-15? Go cold.

[ShuRugal]

Yeah, this subject again. Nothing pisses me off more than an F-15 who goes cold the moment i launch, at a range of 40km, and still kills me regardless of how i manuever.

 

Why is the tracking hardware for the AIM-120 mounted in the F-15 tailpipe? If they stay hot, I can get the kill and survive it, but they go cold and suddenly their missiles get even more insanely reliable?

 

</rant>

[TAW_Blaze]

You do understand what you just said makes absolutely zero sense at all, right?

[Buckeye]

Lol what the hell? I don't even know where to start with this post.

[TAW_Blaze]

Ace, I just realized how funny our signatures look in this specific order. Almost like we just merged looking at each other :D

[Frostie]

Yeah, this subject again. Nothing pisses me off more than an F-15 who goes cold the moment i launch, at a range of 40km, and still kills me regardless of how i manuever.

 

Why is the tracking hardware for the AIM-120 mounted in the F-15 tailpipe? If they stay hot, I can get the kill and survive it, but they go cold and suddenly their missiles get even more insanely reliable?

 

</rant>

It's a side effect of poor ARH modelling. The missiles don't fly to last known intercept, instead they fly dumb scanning a huge area looking for anything in that scope, the scan rate it uses is highly debatable. The missiles have a +-55 degree scan cone in which they are supposed to scan 11deg per second. In real terms this would only happen when the missile reaches the intercept basket and also not be covering the whole 110deg scan cone, but with ED ARH you get full coverage at an alarming rate as soon as lock is dropped.

It currently seems to be the only solution to make up for lack of modelling INS, data link etc.

[104th_Maverick]

Newsflash... If you go cold when he does... you'll stay alive!

 

Why are you still flying towards someone who you know has fired at you but is now flying away from you? This is suicide!

 

Target fixation is what's getting you killed, not magical F-15 missiles.

 

And 40k is way to far to be firing at someone, wait till at least 25/20k!

[ShuRugal]

You do understand what you just said makes absolutely zero sense at all' date=' right?[/quote']

 

What I mean is, this guy went cold at a range of 35-40 km, with me cranked all the way one direction. When he went cold, I cranked fully the opposite direction and dove for speed. When his missile went active some 40 seconds later, I was a minimum of 10km laterally displaced from where the missile would have had my last known intercept plotted. How, then, did it find me? How did it have enough energy to kill me?

 

I'd love to post a track, but this happened after two hours of flying around looking for a fight, and we all know the results long tracks produce.... wish they'd fix that crap too.

 

;2276262']Newsflash... If you go cold when he does... you'll stay alive!

 

Why are you still flying towards someone who you know has fired at you but is now flying away from you? This is suicide!

 

Target fixation is what's getting you killed, not magical F-15 missiles.

 

And 40k is way to far to be firing at someone, wait till at least 25/20k!

 

because staying hot is the only way I can continue to threaten him? And because until his missile goes loud, I don't know if he has fired or not? If I had ARH, I could go cold and not have to worry about getting a facefull of AMRAAM when I turn to re-engage.

 

And 40k is the perfect distance for a first launch. I don't have slammers, I have to use more than one missile to get a kill (unless I have all the cards, speed, altitude, and surprise). 40k puts the other guy on the defensive sooner.

 

It's a side effect of poor ARH modelling. The missiles don't fly to last known intercept, instead they fly dumb scanning a huge area looking for anything in that scope, the scan rate it uses is highly debatable. The missiles have a +-55 degree scan cone in which they are supposed to scan 11deg per second. In real terms this would only happen when the missile reaches the intercept basket and also not be covering the whole 110deg scan cone, but with ED ARH you get full coverage at an alarming rate as soon as lock is dropped.

It currently seems to be the only solution to make up for lack of modelling INS, data link etc.

 

that is what seems to be the problem. I would rather deal with a missile that was more dangerous if the launching aircraft stayed supporting it, not one that magically scans the whole sky when the guy goes cold...

[GGTharos]

What I mean is, this guy went cold at a range of 35-40 km, with me cranked all the way one direction. When he went cold, I cranked fully the opposite direction and dove for speed. When his missile went active some 40 seconds later, I was a minimum of 10km laterally displaced from where the missile would have had my last known intercept plotted. How, then, did it find me? How did it have enough energy to kill me?

 

He had a friend that you didn't know about.

 

I'd love to post a track, but this happened after two hours of flying around looking for a fight, and we all know the results long tracks produce.... wish they'd fix that crap too.

Then don't complain unless you have the entire picture.

 

because staying hot is the only way I can continue to threaten him? And because until his missile goes loud, I don't know if he has fired or not? If I had ARH, I could go cold and not have to worry about getting a facefull of AMRAAM when I turn to re-engage.

If you had SARH, you wouldn't have to worry either as long as you went cold at a desired distance.

 

And 40k is the perfect distance for a first launch. I don't have slammers, I have to use more than one missile to get a kill (unless I have all the cards, speed, altitude, and surprise). 40k puts the other guy on the defensive sooner.

No, it's really not. The in-game slammers (All missiles, really) have so much drag that the only way they're hitting something from a 40km distance is if you intercept the missile yourself.

 

that is what seems to be the problem. I would rather deal with a missile that was more dangerous if the launching aircraft stayed supporting it, not one that magically scans the whole sky when the guy goes cold...

Frostie likes to bring up his pet ARH peeve, without realizing that when/if missiles acquire the complex guidance, they'll be more effective even when you're not supporting them ... not less effective. He's just stuck on one single particular scenario. To be blunt, there's just about no way a 120 in this game can hit you from 40km away if it has to do anything that resembles hard maneuvering.

 

On the other hand, if he launched from 20km and you're at 6000m altitude or so, you're in big trouble and none of this 'poor ARH implementation' stuff applies.

Edited December 30, 2014 by GGTharos

[104th_Maverick]

because staying hot is the only way I can continue to threaten him?

 

The only person you are threatening in this scenario is yourself sir.

 

A. There is very little chance your missile is going to hit him when launched from 40K away

 

B. There is absolutely no way it will hit him if fired from 40K and then he goes cold.

 

Ideally you need to drop this 40K stuff and bring your shots into the 20K region.

If you fired at me at 40K I would just simply notch you or gimble you to bring you in closer, you are no threat to me at all firing from that range. If anything you are helping me kill you with this ....

 

because staying hot is the only way I can continue to threaten him?

 

Cause you fired first I know you want to guide your shot, so I will simply wait until you get to 20K range then return fire and extend while you try to keep tracking me because you think firing first from outside of 20K gives you some kind of advantage. The last thing I'm going to do is fire back at you from 40K just because you launched from that distance!

 

Those days are long gone sir, these days you have to get into near WVR before you fire, like I said you should be aiming for around 20K launches ideally less if you can!

[Frostie]

Frostie likes to bring up his pet ARH peeve, without realizing that when/if missiles acquire the complex guidance, they'll be more effective even when you're not supporting them ... not less effective. He's just stuck on one single particular scenario. To be blunt, there's just about no way a 120 in this game can hit you from 40km away if it has to do anything that resembles hard maneuvering.

There is no lack of realization here, if missiles had better guidance they would work much more effectively, simple, not to mention datalink, last known position etc. but the fact is the missiles not working as they should is a two edged sword.

 

If they worked correctly they could be fired and forgot immediately and eventually engage a drone flying a non evasive path successfully using basket, INS etc. technology, but also suffer the same failings the RAF found firing missiles with no MCU. This is not how it works in DCS so we have a work around. It is no more a pet peeve than any other mismodeling.

[GGTharos]

There is no lack of realization here, if missiles had better guidance they would work much more effectively, simple, not to mention datalink, last known position etc. but the fact is the missiles not working as they should is a two edged sword.

 

Since missile AFM it's a pretty single-edged sword.

Unless things have changed, the gimbals are scanned quite slowly right now.

With AFM, a 'hard turn' into a luckily detected target = super slow missile.

 

If they worked correctly they could be fired and forgot immediately and eventually engage a drone flying a non evasive path successfully using basket, INS etc. technology, but also suffer the same failings the RAF found firing missiles with no MCU. This is not how it works in DCS so we have a work around. It is no more a pet peeve than any other mismodeling.

The only incorrect thing here is your interpretation of what happened to ShuRugal. It likely has nothing to do with what you mentioned.

 

Not to mention that if the missile is 15nm away once the fighter goes cold (or if the launch is at 15nm), you've no chances of exiting the basked anyway. You just can't move fast enough. Sadly, this 'mismodeling' denies the missile doing good work in this scenario.

[Buckeye]

Ace' date=' I just realized how funny our signatures look in this specific order. Almost like we just merged looking at each other :D[/quote']

 

:megalol: I'm dying, that is hilarious.

[ShuRugal]

He had a friend that you didn't know about.

 

while that is entirely possible, it would be irrelevant. As you have pointed out to me in the past regarding the 120, there is no data-link or buddy-guidance modeled for it. If the launcher turns cold before the missile enters terminal guidance, it should go blind.

 

 

;2276436']The only person you are threatening in this scenario is yourself sir.

I am willing to concede that possibility, but that is not what should have been the case here.

 

A. There is very little chance your missile is going to hit him when launched from 40K away

 

right, the idea is to force the other guy to react. create a problem for him to solve (inbound missile) and add a task to his workload (evade it)

 

B. There is absolutely no way it will hit him if fired from 40K and then he goes cold.

good. With a 40k launch, i'm not trying to kill him, I just want him to go cold, as this lets me close to a more effective range, gain altitude, or otherwise position myself to press the engagement should he come back around.

 

Ideally you need to drop this 40K stuff and bring your shots into the 20K region.

If you fired at me at 40K I would just simply notch you or gimble you to bring you in closer, you are no threat to me at all firing from that range. If anything you are helping me kill you with this ....

 

you would do that, he didn't. He went into a crank on the same side as mine (we both cranked to the south) and held it for about 5-10 seconds before going cold. When he went cold, I reversed my crank and went north. I should have been nowhere even close to his missile when it went active, yet it found me anyway.

 

 

Cause you fired first I know you want to guide your shot, so I will simply wait until you get to 20K range then return fire and extend while you try to keep tracking me because you think firing first from outside of 20K gives you some kind of advantage. The last thing I'm going to do is fire back at you from 40K just because you launched from that distance!

 

again, you would, he didn't. at no point was his range to me under 35km while he was hot.

 

Those days are long gone sir, these days you have to get into near WVR before you fire, like I said you should be aiming for around 20K launches ideally less if you can!

 

I do launch at 20k, after launching at 40. I have taken the advice of my betters, and no longer worry about how many missiles i expend to engage a single target. didn't help me here.

Edited December 30, 2014 by ShuRugal

[Buckeye]

I do launch at 20k, after launching at 40. I have taken the advice of my betters, and no longer worry about how many missiles i expend to engage a single target. didn't help me here.

 

I understand the thought process of being liberal with your missiles to ensure life is kept, and I agree 100% with it, but launching at 40k (~21nm) is a blatant waste of a missile. With the current modeling, the only way that missile means anything is if the opposing pilot goes brain dead and flies directly to/into your missile. IMO, it sounds like you have received some sub-par advice in the past on preferred firing ranges and you may want to reexamine your strategies ala what Maverick previously suggested.

[GGTharos]

The point is that he buddy could have come for a much closer launch and you didn't see it. A launch at 20k vs 40k for example.

 

while that is entirely possible, it would be irrelevant. As you have pointed out to me in the past regarding the 120, there is no data-link or buddy-guidance modeled for it. If the launcher turns cold before the missile enters terminal guidance, it should go blind.

[Frostie]

The only incorrect thing here is your interpretation of what happened to ShuRugal. It likely has nothing to do with what you mentioned.

Yes, I may have interpreted ShuRugal's incident wrongly.

 

 

Not to mention that if the missile is 15nm away once the fighter goes cold (or if the launch is at 15nm), you've no chances of exiting the basked anyway. You just can't move fast enough. Sadly, this 'mismodeling' denies the missile doing good work in this scenario.

I totally disagree, the missile will be scanning +-3000m altitude at the basket at approx. 15km range. So what you're telling me is that an aircraft can't drop 1500m in the time it takes a missile to fly 15km??

[RIPTIDE]

Yeah, this subject again. Nothing pisses me off more than an F-15 who goes cold the moment i launch, at a range of 40km, and still kills me regardless of how i manuever.

 

Why is the tracking hardware for the AIM-120 mounted in the F-15 tailpipe? If they stay hot, I can get the kill and survive it, but they go cold and suddenly their missiles get even more insanely reliable?

 

</rant>

Deliver to us some track(s).

[ShuRugal]

The point is that he buddy could have come for a much closer launch and you didn't see it. A launch at 20k vs 40k for example.

 

Except his hypothetical buddy didn't get named in the kill message, he did.

 

Deliver to us some track(s).

 

yes, it is awful convenient how the problem with tracks not recording correctly helps maintain the status-quo for the F-15 fanclub....

 

 

 

 

And to people who say i should go cold when the f-15 does: I just tried it, it worked perfectly. I was head to head with Knight, went cold when he did around 30km, and when i came back around, I had no radar picture on him and he had a sparrow in my canopy. Y'all suckered me into that one.

[GGTharos]

How do you know? A 3x3 raster (common for acquisition, not scanning) at 15km will be about 4x4km - this is just with the piddly knowledge we have for radar technique and a radar missile's iFoV. It's actually just a bit larger than the mad-dog circle.

 

If you were willing to double the scanning time for actual search you'get a 4x4 raster which you would execute in just over a second. At 15km this is 5x5km.

 

But things aren't really that easy: Search range for the 120 against a 'medium target' (Read fighter) is said to be close to 13nm. So now we're looking at over 20km distance for this little thing to find you and track you, and the size of the area grows proportionally (calculate about 17m per degree per km, iFoV 6 deg with slight over-lap, so we won't be getting the full 6 deg per bar).

 

A 3x3 raster will give you about 15deg x 3 bars. That's 60 deg, easily scanned in a second by any radar antenna that isn't 30 years old.

 

And again ... this is a search mode. It's fast.

 

And what I'm telling you is that you won't drop 1500m in the time it takes that missile to complete a 3x3 search at that range. Bonus points if it has your last known (to the missile) vector and has a reasonable chance of calculating how far you'll go from your last known position.

 

Now we can argue as to whether we need to build a track, how many hits are needed to build a track etc. etc. ... the point is, it won't be anywhere near as easy as you're wanting it to be. :) The MoD didn't find out the 120 was useless without data-link, or that it could only be used against straight flying drones - at least, that's not what they said. They said Pk drops by half. There are reasons for this beyond targets flying outside of the capture box, the size of which we do not know. (But we keep guessing at it, I know).

 

I totally disagree, the missile will be scanning +-3000m altitude at the basket at approx. 15km range. So what you're telling me is that an aircraft can't drop 1500m in the time it takes a missile to fly 15km??

[TAW_Blaze]

What you guys seem to forget is that in a straight up duel:

 

1) first missile isn't fired to kill the guy

 

2) first missile is not an exclusive one

 

What I definitely missed from the OP is that no altitudes were given. 40k shot above contrails is a kill. Either way we're still just throwing words around and nobody really knows what happened. If you think cheapshots are more effective than properly supported shots then you're very very wrong. You're also very wrong at saying no matter what you do you're dead, given the fact you're in X situation in an engagement you WILL HAVE to ditch your missile. If you don't you're dead. You might die later because you ditched the missile, but that's far better than immediately getting trashed. Point is, if X situation is bad, you have to recognize the situation and act according.

 

It's also a likely possibility it was another guy who shot you.

 

Defensive shots are tricky, take it too early and it's a waste, take it too late and you can't follow up. Not being able to follow up usually means a lost fight so I'd say better early than late if the guy sees you anyway.

[RIPTIDE]

yes, it is awful convenient how the problem with tracks not recording correctly helps maintain the status-quo for the F-15 fanclub....

.

Don't be like that now, brah. There must be tracks that aren't corrupted in your Saved games folder.

[ShuRugal]

Don't be like that now, brah. There must be tracks that aren't corrupted in your Saved games folder.

 

very few over 15 minutes, none over 45. 2 hours? hell naw.

[GGTharos]

Except his hypothetical buddy didn't get named in the kill message, he did.

 

So he wasted your missile, shot from close range, and ran away? :)

 

Or maybe he launched from really high, fast, and long range and then ran away when he got close? :)

 

yes, it is awful convenient how the problem with tracks not recording correctly helps maintain the status-quo for the F-15 fanclub....

BS. Don't even start that, you won't like where it leads.

 

And to people who say i should go cold when the f-15 does: I just tried it, it worked perfectly. I was head to head with Knight, went cold when he did around 30km, and when i came back around, I had no radar picture on him and he had a sparrow in my canopy. Y'all suckered me into that one.

That just means your SA sucks. Maybe you should work on your SA? The Sparrow is shorter-ranged than the R-27ER, and he also need to get a radar picture on you after going cold.

 

Maybe the problem is you, and not AIM-120's or what others are suggesting.

 

I understand how frustrating this can get, but you've taken it into territory that you shouldn't have. The fault lies with you, period, end of story. You still have a lot to learn - people tried to help you and all you can do is complain.

 

Here's what you should ask yourself: You went cold, you didn't keep track of him and probably didn't have a good plan of re-acquiring him. So, why did you turn back into him? Or at least, if you turned back and didn't find him within the next 5 seconds, why didn't you turn cold again and hit the road?

Edited December 30, 2014 by GGTharos

[*Rage*]

Have you actually watched the tracks to see? If youre not using tacview its gonna take you much longer to learn.

 

You also havent mentioned altitudes. Makes a massive difference.

[*Rage*]

What you guys seem to forget is that in a straight up duel:

 

1) first missile isn't fired to kill the guy

 

2) first missile is not an exclusive one

 

What I definitely missed from the OP is that no altitudes were given. 40k shot above contrails is a kill.

 

Agreed. Except if fairness to the OP the ER tracking currently is so poor that defensive shots are useless and expected kill shots often go dead for no good reason which leads to his frustration. Even more frustrating if youre doing everything right and missiles are dead off the rails or take spectacular detours. He may not realise this if he's not analysing tacviews.