Rudder Coordination Exercises- what the heck is the rudder for????

[Crumpp]

I thought some players might be interested in working on their "stick and rudder skills". If you already know this stuff, then disregard it.

 

There are many real pilots that do not know what a rudder is for or what "right" looks like in performing a coordinate bank or roll. This is an essential skill to master the agility of your aircraft. It works well in DCS.

 

In the track I used the FW-190D9 because you can see the rudder pedal input better than the P-51.

 

To make any bank, you lead the bank with the appropriate amount of rudder to keep the nose rotating around the longitudinal axis. That is the axis running straight thru the fuselage from the spinner tip to the tail.

 

http://www.langleyflyingschool.com/Images/Flight%20Training%20Manual/Aircraft%20Axis.jpg

 

A fraction of a second behind the rudder input, follow with the ailerons. You will know the bank is coordinated when the nose stays in the same place and you smoothly enter the turn. When the turn is established, you can take the rudder out and most airplanes will be in a ball centered coordinated turn. With the Dora in DCS, you need to keep a little rudder when going to the left, IIRC.

 

The Dora has a powerful rudder so it does not take much input at all. Watch the track paying attention to the rudder input. Do not focus on the inclinometer (ball), it lies to you in a first part of a bank and is useless in a fast roll. After watching it from the cockpit, use the F2 view to pay attention to the nose movement about the longitudinal axis. You can see the uncoordinated banks by the nose swing. It is also easy to spot them because the airplane does not like it and wants to stall in the turn. The turn entry is not smooth after the bank.

 

I do coordinated bank and turn entry left and right, uncoordinated bank entry left and right, aileron rolls and a series of coordinated banks.

 

The coordinated banks are a great exercise to get the feel of your aircraft for the right amount of rudder to lead the bank. Again, watch the nose and do not let it yaw off the longitudinal axis.

 

Here is a good youtube video with the inclinometer showing so you can watch the indications in a roll.

 

 

This is a good video for seeing the nose moments. Do not get confused because of the pitch up and nose ending below the horizon. That is done to keep acceleration on the vertical axis so that down remains the floor of the cockpit.

 

 

Any way, it should give you something to practice and will help with maneuvering the aircraft in a dogfight.

coordination rudder, uncoordinated rudder, aileron rolls, coordinated banks.trk

Edited March 5, 2015 by Crumpp

[SlipBall]

Yes I always use the rudder in my turns, and I will add that the rudder is extremely important in any use of my weapons :D

[Crumpp]

Yes I always use the rudder in my turns, and I will add that the rudder is extremely important in any use of my weapons

 

Absolutely!.

 

You can see the importance of coordinated rudder and aileron use in maneuvering the aircraft.

 

I hope this is helping the community.

[arglmauf]

And this is the moment when you realize "I've been trying to do that and all the time, I've not been doing it right":P Thanks for showing Crumpp:D I notice that the stalling in turn comes much earlier (in reference to the amount of stick back) when the nose is not "settled" after the roll. Can someone explain as to why that happens? Airflow over the wings not "clean" due to the swerving and therefore more fragile?

[Crumpp]

Airflow over the wings not "clean" due to the swerving and therefore more fragile?

 

That is a good way of looking at it. The sideforce creates fuselage drag and a degree of lift but mostly drag. Lift is nothing more than a function of dynamic pressure and enough dynamic pressure, anything will fly.

 

The area of the wing obscured by the fuselage will experience unsteady flow due because of this fact. That also increase our drag.

 

The main thing that happens is drag and lift are connected. The higher the drag, the more lift required. An uncoordinated roll is higher in drag so it uses more available angle of attack to complete the maneuver which means less of our finite available angle of attack is used to enter the turn.

 

Hence the aircraft stalls earlier because we reached the stall angle of attack to overcome the drag we produced in the uncoordinated roll.

 

:joystick:

[fasteddie1]

Thanks for the info Crumpp, its made a world of difference in my flying.

[DirtyFret]

:thumbup: Thanks, very helpful. Basic stuff but hard to figure out without help. Now I wish someone would teach me to dogfight just as easily :lol:

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Interesting to learn also, from RW experience, that on most GA prop aircraft ( single engine ), CW rotating prop, you actually sometimes use right rudder on turns through the right, and also, even if less, right rudder on turns through the left, when power is applied, like in a level turn, due to the strong asymmetric slipstream & also torque effects.

 

Unfortunately very few simulators model this. In FSX some authors have managed to cheat the TC creating a permanent displacement to the right, in X-Plane the latest datarefs allow for fine tuning of the prop effects, but the first sim I used that correctly modeled the effect for all of it's simulated fleet of GA prop single and twins was ELITE.

 

In DCS World it's possible to experience also in the K4, and I believe in the D9 too.

 

In il2 BoS it's very evident on most of the fighters, with adaptation to the fact that some are CCW ( and the effect is felt on turns through the right requiring left rudder... )

Edited March 9, 2015 by jcomm

[Crumpp]

Basic stuff but hard to figure out without help.

 

Exactly. A long time ago in a galaxy far far away when the ink was still wet on my PPL

 

I went flying with a World War II vet. The guy flew C-47's over the Hump in Burma/China. During the flight, he turns to me and says, "Your instructor flew tricycle gear aircraft all the time. How can I tell, your feet are lazy." It was true on both counts. He then showed me what "right" looked like and the difference was dramatic.

 

In DCS World it's possible to experience also in the K4, and I believe in the D9 too.

 

Thanks for the additional knowledge, Jcomm. It works in DCS for all of the them, IIRC. The P-51 rudder trim can hide some of the rudder effects in DCS. Without a buttocks to airplane interface, that rudder trim screws me up sometimes!

[Crumpp]

Thanks for the info Crumpp, its made a world of difference in my flying.

 

Glad it helped! I see it many times online, I will bank into a turn only to look back at my pursuer stalling trying to follow me because he does not make a coordinated roll.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Which can bring yet another theme, where again DCS does a very plausible job...

 

Rudder uncoordination / cross-controlling as in sideslips / fwd slips...

 

It's the kind of maneuver I do the most while landing in short fields with the glider ( iRL ) and it's indeed a safe ( if correctly executed ... ) maneuver.

 

In DCS I use it when I have to land sooner than I planned to, and find myself too high ... It works very well in all of the 4 prop models currently available :)

[Crumpp]

I slip to land in DCS too!

[WildBillKelsoe]

could you be kind to post a video for those of us that don't have Fw-190?

[domini99]

I don't get the A-10

With the slightest push on the rudder it starts to bank over.

 

I don't need to use rudder when turning in the A-10?

[Crumpp]

could you be kind to post a video for those of us that don't have Fw-190?

 

You guys cannot watch FW-190 tracks without owning the module? Really?

 

Sure, I will make some in the P-51 for you and post it.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Last time I checked, no. You must own it to see the cockpit. If your track is F2 view ONLY, belay that request.

[Crumpp]

Crap....I will post a Mustang track. Thank you for telling me this!

[WildBillKelsoe]

TF-51 sounds like a good choice. For all who don't know what this is, and how to do it, like me.

[Crumpp]

I will make a new Mustang Track. I did not post the first one because it is harder to see what I am doing on the rudder pedals in the P-51 cockpit. I will do the same routine:

 

Coordinated bank and turn entry left and right, uncoordinated bank entry left and right, aileron rolls and a series of coordinated banks.

 

Coordinated banks are great for developing the muscle memory in your feet.

 

The difference in performance is noticeable and will effect a dogfight.

[Kurfürst]

Very useful and enlightening thread, thanks for putting the effort in it!

[Crumpp]

You are welcome. I glad it is helping!

[Gooseneck]

You can see the importance of coordinated rudder and aileron use in maneuvering the aircraft.

 

Agree. This completely dispels the myth of Douglas Bader being of any use at all. :)

 

Personally, I learned to 'fly' using the PPL course in the 'learning centre' of FSX. I flew r/c in my youth, but it just ain't the same as flying a pc......

 

But seriously folks, if you can tolerate the boredom and the pathetic jokes, the flying lessons found under 'learning centre' in FSX are pretty good. Particularly with reference to coordinated turns, correct use of trims and throttle settings for climb and descent, use of flaps etc. The whole shebang really.

 

If you don't have the privilege of flying for real in any capacity, don't overlook FSX as being somehow 'old hat'.

 

As for rudders; in wwII a/c, I only consciously use it to counteract torque on take-off, then to keep my sights on target. I constantly trim to centre the slip-ball though. The rest is instinctive, thanks to FSX.

 

Or you could just call me Doug. Or Dougie. Whatever. :thumbup:

Edited October 9, 2015 by Dooyar

[rrohde]

Read in "The German Aces Speak" (Part 1) that one of the pilots describes how he was "sliding" out of the way in front of a bogie, so that his wingman can shoot at him, by stepping on the left rudder and throwing the stick all the way to the right. Guess I need to try to work with rudders some more to use it tactically... :)

[Gooseneck]

Read in "The German Aces Speak" (Part 1) that one of the pilots describes how he was "sliding" out of the way in front of a bogie, so that his wingman can shoot at him, by stepping on the left rudder and throwing the stick all the way to the right. Guess I need to try to work with rudders some more to use it tactically... :)

 

And Pete Brothers, a Battle of Britain vet, always flew with some side-slip, so that his aircraft was pointing in a direction he wasn't going in, to confuse any attackers. :)

 

But of course the experts learned how to do it properly before they learned the tricks of the trade.

 

Earlier posts in this thread have mentioned side-slipping in to land, which as you say, is also a superb avoidance tactic in combat. The I-16 in old IL2 was fantastic for this, because you could wait for the enemy to shoot by, recover from the slip and blast him, even if he was B&Zing and had a huge speed advantage. Those were the days.... :)

Edited October 9, 2015 by Dooyar

[Crumpp]

Here is the P-51 track. You can really see the directional stability issues of the bubble canopy Mustang. That is one reason why the filet was added to the design.

 

It takes practice. I even added some top rudder a few times.

 

In the track I did the same routine as the Dora:

 

1. Coordinated roll and turn Left and Right

 

2. Uncoordinated roll and turn Left and Right

 

3. Rudder co-ordination exercises. I do a few left and right correctly and then over use the rudder a few times.

 

Coordinated rudder has the aircraft rotating about the longitudinal axis. The nose dose not slop up or down. You can see that in the coordination exercises. When it is not right, the nose swings about the horizon.

P-51 Co-ordinated roll, uncoordinated roll, rudder aileron co-ordination exercise.trk