Mixed setup: x52 Pro HOTAS with TM 16000 ?...

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

- Intentionally left blank -

Edited August 17, 2015 by jcomm

[Bucic]

I'm considering buying the T.16000M as well. The twist yaw and the throttle are both on crappy potentiometers but I need a compact and precise stick only. Does anyone own the little bugger?

[OnlyforDCS]

I dont know about the TM 16000 but I can tell you that my MSFFB2 works flawlessly with the X52 throttle quadrant, so I think you should be fine.

[tovivan]

I have it. I haven't had many sticks, nor am I a good pilot, nor am I an expert on sticks, so can't give an indepth discussion on it's technology, but can only comment on the things that are apparent to a layman.

 

First and foremost, I was disappointed with the build quality, I expected better.

 

Heck, my Logitech was still rock-solid after 18 years of hard use, with nothing loose or falling off. But not TM.

 

Within a few days of purchase the hand rest on the stick itself got loose and started wobbling on it's axis (left and right). But it's big enough even for a yeti to rest his hand there.

 

Besides that, the sensor for the left movement seem to like their job a little too much and have problems going home when they should.

 

Meaning, when I push the stick left and let go, the sensors don't turn always off and the plane keeps banking left (about 6/10 times). Which is visible by the fact that the LED at the stick base is still turned on. I have to give it a quick jerk right to disengage the sensors. Extremely annoying.

 

That LED is another peeve of mine. While it lets you know the sensors are being dumb, it's way too big and way too powerful. In the dark it can interfere with your play. Some solve that by covering it with electric tape, I simply used an old floppy disk. It's still not perfect, but useful. Would instead prefer a small LED somewhere on the upper part of the stick (preferably under the #2 button).

 

Base... the problem is that this stick was made for both right- and left-handers. And because of that it fails in some regard on both. The buttons are split equally on both sides on the base, so can be a bit of a bugger to use during flight. Right-hander dedicated stick would probably have a better placement of buttons so they could be easier accessible with the left hand.

EXAMPLE: on left side I assigned buttons for sensors, on the right I have electrics, engines, canopy, gear, flaps and the like because I find it more important to quickly and without problems switch on radar/irst, deploy chaff and so on than to raise gear. That's why when I take off I usually have to let go of the stick or grab it with my left hand to raise gear and flaps. Same procedure when preparing for landing. Would prefer buttons that are smaller, clearly separated from each other and are all on the left side of the base.

 

Throttle is more symbolic than not, it moves up and down only about 3cm. Not good for precise work. Separate throttle highly recommended (I got the Saitek throttle quadrant and am happy with it).

 

The good thing is it's got a lot of buttons, they are big and with little practice you can easily hit the correct one in dark with eyes glued to the screen. Provided they are on the side your other hand is... The problem is one button almost flows into another. Smaller, maybe circular buttons separated from others with the base's plastic and sticking a bit out of the surface (to detect them easier) would be better.

 

It doesn't stick to the table with suckers, but with sticky thingies. They need to be cleaned regularly and after one year they are still sticky enough to glue the stick firmly to the desk.

 

The futuristic/neutral design is what you want to make of it, either annoying or good because it isn't a copy of some real plane that you have no wish of flying.

 

For now that's all that comes to mind, if I remember something I'll post later. :)

 

EDIT: the twist rudder is not that good, nor precise nor fun. If you are prone to hand-sweating it can be a bit of a witch to use because there is not much good purchase for twisting to the left (right-hander perspective). If you twist to the right, you have purchase/support in the form of the thumb-rest on the upper part of the stick.

 

If I could afford them I would definitely rather buy pedals.

Edited July 29, 2015 by tovivan

[Bucic]

Thanks, tovivan!

Does the problem with centering persist if you reboot? Or better yet, is the problem due to the spring not being stiff enough to move the handle back to the center or is it that the sensor goes wonky?

[tovivan]

Thanks, tovivan!

Does the problem with centering persist if you reboot? Or better yet, is the problem due to the spring not being stiff enough to move the handle back to the center or is it that the sensor goes wonky?

 

Yes, the problem persists and is pretty much random. It's not a problem with software or windows, it's pure hardware issue within the stick itself. Either, like you said, poor springs or poor sensors.

 

Thank god for that double edged sword of LED which acts as a traitor telling me it's the stick, not the game or windows. :D

 

I may simply have a sample from a poor batch (I HAVE noticed products of poorer quality being sold in my country from the same brand than in rest of Europe and then also the shoddiest being sent from the capital into my province while they keep the good ones - confirmed by various sources in various fields), so not generalising TM or this stick as crap in general. ;-)

 

But, as I am looking at my own stick, the pure build quality disappointed (as said, just the hand rest was loose within 3 days of purchase).

 

Would I buy a different stick if I could go back? Probably not because there aren't many options in my price range and this is the only one that promises not to have dead zones what with the HALL tech.

 

But what I would've done is to grin and rather dish out another 10 or 15 eur and buy it from Austria or Germany (this was the only case known to me where tech was cheaper in my country than in rest of Europe).

 

In the end it's my own fault for not claiming warranty. I could've gotten it replaced under warranty (it is only 1 year, right?), but didn't want to stop playing for who knows how long it'd take the service to fix it. :doh:

EDIT: Google turned up TM has 2 year warranty. Calling up the vendor if they know about that. If they do the stick is going back today. xD

 

PS: I don't know if this is flight models or simply physiology of my arm or again the stick, but I have also noticed planes in games being more responsive if pressure to the left is applied to the stick (in the direction of the fault), than when it is applied to the right. Again, not necessarily the stick's fault and if it is, could be a bad batch.

[Bucic]

Let me ask differently. When you test during an occurrence of the flaw using the TARGET tester (or other tester with a big output window/ranges) can you still:

- reach the center,

- controll around the center perfectly,

- reach the outer ranges of movement of both axes, both directions

with the position indicator?

If the answer to all of the questions above is YES, then it's an issue comming down to the spring:

either

- poorly mounted

or

- relaxed to the left under your arm*

 

*A normally rested arm does not inflict force vertically.

 

If that's the case, there's more than one way to fix this easily. Just let me know.

[Bucic]

PS: I don't know if this is flight models or simply physiology of my arm or again the stick, but I have also noticed planes in games being more responsive if pressure to the left is applied to the stick (in the direction of the fault), than when it is applied to the right. Again, not necessarily the stick's fault and if it is, could be a bad batch.

It may be the yaw and roll effect from propeller wash.

[tovivan]

Yup, have considered the wash itself, just threw it under the flight model. :D

 

Let me ask differently. When you test during an occurrence of the flaw using the TARGET tester

 

Haven't used TARGET. xD

 

My demands for sticks are pretty light since I have no clue about advanced stuff like curves (is there any good tutorial on curves, relatives and so on and what they actually do?) so I usually just calibrate them in Windows and then set deadzones in game if needed.

 

I did a bit more testing now. LED flashes on very easily if I tap stick gently left or up. Takes a bit more for tap down. A lot more force when tapping right.

 

 

EDIT AFTER DOWNLOADING AND INSTALLING TARGET:

I can reach all extremes for all axis. The Analyzer actually shows I've reached the full axis even when I can still move the stick a bit more.

 

Normally when I let go, all zones in Analyzer return to 0.

 

Hm:

1. I can not move each axis independently. If I move the sick even a little every possible axis except for the throttle moves. Expected, I guess.

 

2. the Device Analyzer shows Y axis (wtf?!) to have -432 after I stopped moving the stick around when the LED stayed on. Doesn't make sense, left is not Y axis.

Second try: -211

Third try: -431

Fourth try: -423

Fifth try: -447

-115

...

 

3. Now the X axis shows:

minus 315

again -315

-91

-139

-215

-207

...

 

 

This is getting weird.

[Bucic]

Could you please record a video showing the readouts? The video has to show values at extreme positions as well.

[tovivan]

Could you please record a video showing the readouts? The video has to show values at extreme positions as well.

 

You mean a video with camera showing the joystick and monitor with Analyzer turned on? That's gonna be a bit hard (impossible) to do.

[Bucic]

You mean a video with camera showing the joystick and monitor with Analyzer turned on? That's gonna be a bit hard (impossible) to do.

Just the screen capture.

[Sokol1_br]

I can reach all extremes for all axis. The Analyzer actually shows I've reached the full axis even when I can still move the stick a bit more.

 

This issue, the sensor reach his maximum reading before the stick lever reach his maximum movement is due bad coil placement (after all is a 50$ stick'), can be improved/fix playing (loose/tight) the bolts that

secure the coil in place.

 

I have one these, actually disassembled for transfer the buttons for the left side for the grip, since in this place they are difficult to difficult to use, maybe I replace the grip for one from Suncom F-15.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Sokol1_br

[tovivan]

This issue, the sensor reach his maximum reading before the stick lever reach his maximum movement is due bad coil placement (after all is a 50$ stick'), can be improved/fix playing (loose/tight) the bolts that

secure the coil in place.

 

Makes sense, thanks! :)

 

Just the screen capture.

 

If you can tell me what exactly to capture I can take screenshots. :)

[Bucic]

If you can tell me what exactly to capture I can take screenshots. :)

With screenshots we'll be going back and forth writing each other for many posts like two 18th century lovers. There's no pressure, in any case.

[Bucic]

This issue, the sensor reach his maximum reading before the stick lever reach his maximum movement is due bad coil placement (after all is a 50$ stick'), can be improved/fix playing (loose/tight) the bolts that

secure the coil in place.

 

I have one these, actually disassembled for transfer the buttons for the left side for the grip, since in this place they are difficult to difficult to use, maybe I replace the grip for one from Suncom F-15.

BTW, Sokol, I know you for a tinkerer. What's your opinion on the 16000?

 

http://ofp-faguss.com/blog/joystick-t16000m-review/#

Edited July 31, 2015 by Bucic

[Bucic]

Does anyone have photos of the t.16000m internals? The gimbal and the spring specifically.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Bucic