F86 engine power

[cromhunt]

hello:)

Just a word to Belsimtek devs,about the ridiculous power of the F86 engine.

I already know and read some threads about the beta version.

However my question is :

for how many time this beta has been scheduled?

Cause actually the plane seems to be weak and under powered,in a particular situation that everybody can test.

 

While trying the rapid mission "intercept",after a first pass canons against the antonov,doing a short and hard turn full throttle which degrade intensively the speed,from 450 mph to 150 mph.

Well it doesn't a surprise.

 

However to make up the lost time and regain speed,the F86 seems to be unable to get it.

Even with throttle stills full and vertical speed indicator on zero,the plane speed up very slowly.And stills slow if we do not a descent.

 

What's up to this engine,maybe something strange no?

All the more since during the turn any black out happens that could be point out an engine extinction due to a bad angle of attack or something else?

I mean that an intense hard turn could make the bad angle,but i will get the black out before all.

 

It's very tricky in dogfight,because you spend your time on getting more speed while the AI enemy makes his stupid boom and zoom dance around you.

 

More over the problem exist with P-51D ,F-15 and A10,even if it's less sensitive.

Other planes keep more easily their speed.

Maybe the american planes are too strong in real life and have to get some nerf:)huh?

However for the poor F86 it's too much.

 

Another strange thing is the non efficiency of the speed brakes on F86.Indeed if you make a sideslip you better gain a significant slowing down than with speed brakes set out.

And make a sideslip with any kind of jet powering engine is dangerous cause might be shut down engine.

It's for this reason that the speed brakes exist,no?:)

 

See you next if you plan a fix:) if not let it be:)

 

bests regards

Edited August 19, 2015 by cromhunt

[Schmidtfire]

The F86F is very slow to regain speed, I agree with you there. I don't know how the real F86F operates so It's hard to say if this is a correct behaviour or not.

If you want to ask the devs about this, head over to the russian parts of the forums instead. Belsimtek devs are quite active there.

[SgtPappy]

hello:)

Just a word to Belsimtek devs,about the ridiculous power of the F86 engine.

I already know and read some threads about the beta version.

However my question is :

for how many time this beta has been scheduled?

Cause actually the plane seems to be weak and under powered,in a particular situation that everybody can test.

 

While trying the rapid mission "intercept",after a first pass canons against the antonov,doing a short and hard turn full throttle which degrade intensively the speed,from 450 mph to 150 mph.

Well it doesn't a surprise.

 

However to make up the lost time and regain speed,the F86 seems to be unable to get it.

Even with throttle stills full and vertical speed indicator on zero,the plane speed up very slowly.And stills slow if we do not a descent.

 

What's up to this engine,maybe something strange no?

All the more since during the turn any black out happens that could be point out an engine extinction due to a bad angle of attack or something else?

I mean that an intense hard turn could make the bad angle,but i will get the black out before all.

 

It's very tricky in dogfight,because you spend your time on getting more speed while the AI enemy makes his stupid boom and zoom dance around you.

 

More over the problem exist with P-51D ,F-15 and A10,even if it's less sensitive.

Other planes keep more easily their speed.

Maybe the american planes are too strong in real life and have to get some nerf:)huh?

However for the poor F86 it's too much.

 

Another strange thing is the non efficiency of the speed brakes on F86.Indeed if you make a sideslip you better gain a significant slowing down than with speed brakes set out.

And make a sideslip with any kind of jet powering engine is dangerous cause might be shut down engine.

It's for this reason that the speed brakes exist,no?:)

 

See you next if you plan a fix:) if not let it be:)

 

bests regards

 

The AI flies unrealistically, don't compare your performance in any plane to them. I haven't seen anything unrealistic in the Sabre's engine thrust. For its time, the F-86F was just a bit better than mediocre in acceleration with a nominal T/W ratio of about 0.397. That wasn't too high nor too low for the time period. If you're slipping or buffeting, this will negatively affect your acceleration.

 

I find it accelerates quite well compared to the anecdotes provided in many texts. If you are at 0 rate of climb at, say, 10000' you will accelerate quite well so I'm not too sure what you're experiencing. I also find that the speed brakes work well, except maybe when you're landing. Make sure you aren't diving at the same time. If I'm level and my brakes are out, I'll need a lot of alpha to stay level under 300 knots. Trust me, watch your vertical speed indicator and keep it at 0. Your plane will slow.

[cromhunt]

thanks for replies:)

All my remarks are from a plane flying at level ,no descent ,no climb, at any flight altitude.

Speed brakes doesn't affect nothing or something too small.

And the sideslip is not recommended for this kind of jet engine above all for this time period.

 

I'm still in doubt.

Nevertheless you are welcome:)

[cromhunt]

FM

 

To illustrate my words i did a little Track,where you can see as a result,what i'm talking about.

 

 

http://msourisofts.free.fr/newskins/DCSAppontageF86.rar

 

You will see that the airbrakes doesn't perturb anything at landing nor at take off

I wonder if the code has not been featured on the wrong side to the airbrakes,because i already seen a stuff like that

with another sim.

 

I wonder if belsimtek did a flight model really so close to the real aircraft:)?

I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to make this kind of landing with the real F86.

Don't you??dear devs:)

 

Anyway it's a game after all:)indeed

 

see you.

Edited August 27, 2015 by cromhunt

[MegOhm_SD]

Games vs sims, the age old debate

[cromhunt]

You are welcome"MegOhm"

It's a fact that game never could be enough close to real.

So why to debate about F86 and his respective performance?

If anyway all the stuff is wrong from the beginning.

I'm just reporting a bug and don't need any supposed explanation that make the devs following their path up to the next stupid avatar.:)

 

Thanks to all for your answer.

But we will never get a fix as long somebody will be satisfied.

 

see you:)

Edited August 27, 2015 by cromhunt

[Exorcet]

I don't have any problem with the F-86's thrust or airbrakes. They work well for me. The brakes in particular are very strong on this aircraft, but naturally they work best at high speed.

 

I have noticed that the F-86's engine RPM does not increase if you start in the air and don't first power down below 70% RPM. I don't know what that is about though. It could be a bug.

[Charly_Owl]

I don't have any problem with the F-86's thrust or airbrakes. They work well for me. The brakes in particular are very strong on this aircraft, but naturally they work best at high speed.

 

I have noticed that the F-86's engine RPM does not increase if you start in the air and don't first power down below 70% RPM. I don't know what that is about though. It could be a bug.

 

Could be a sign of a partial compressor stall. It often happens when you throttle back and forth too quickly. Best way to recover is to throttle back to idle, push the nose down, gain airspeed and progressively throttle back up to max RPM.

 

Why it does it during an air start mission I couldn't tell. It seemed rather inconsistent for me.

[Exorcet]

Could be a sign of a partial compressor stall. It often happens when you throttle back and forth too quickly. Best way to recover is to throttle back to idle, push the nose down, gain airspeed and progressively throttle back up to max RPM.

 

Why it does it during an air start mission I couldn't tell. It seemed rather inconsistent for me.

One of the things that makes it more strange is that I have a hard time getting the engine to misbehave at other times. I'm not always particularly gentle with adjusting throttle and in fights with the AI MiG, I've followed it straight up and gone into tail slides. At first I thought behavior like that would certainly throw something off in the engine, but it never really does.

 

One thing I was thinking about was what exactly is the initial state of the F-86 during an air start. It could be that there is some kind of non physical condition set up that causes the engine to malfunction. I know that for most, if not all aircraft, the engines aren't set to the correct RPM for the speed entered in the mission editor. If you take the F-15 in the ME and put it at max altitude and max speed, you spend the first 10(?) seconds of flight spooling up your engines. The F-86 engine's initial state might make it susceptible to a stall. All a guess since I can't see what's actually happening.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Exorcet

[Decibel dB]

Here are some performance comparison that should answer some questions, check at the F climb rate compare to the 15BIS, as for the speed brakes they are becoming less effective at slow speed ans that's a normal thing. I would prefer a slight better performance also, but after some personal research it seam quite fair.

 

MiG-15bis F-86A-5 F-86E-10 F-86F-10 F-86F-30 (6-3)

Wingspan (ft) 33.08 37.12 37.12 37.12 37.12

Wing Area (sq ft) 255 287.9 287.9 287.9 302.26

Length (ft) 36.27 37.54 37.54 37.54 37.54

Height (ft) 11.15 14.74 14.74 14.74 14.74

Wingsweep (deg) 42 35 35 35 35

Engine. Klimov VK-1 J47-GE-13 J47-GE-13 J47-GE-27 J47-GE-27

Thrust (lb.s.t) 5950 5200 5200 5910 5910

Initial Climb Rate (ft/min) 10,100 7470 7250 9300 9300

Time to 20,000 ft (min) 2.5 4.0 5.2 5.2 5.9[/b]

Time to 30,000 ft (min) 4.9 8.0 9.2 8.3 8.3

Time to 40,000 ft (min) 5.5 18.0 19.3 16.0 16.0

Service Ceiling (ft) 51,500 48,000 47,200 48,000 48,000

Max Speed at Sea Level (mph) (ft) 668 679 679 688 695

Max Speed at 20,000 ft (mph) (ft) 635 635 642 645 655

Max Speed at 30,000 ft (mph) (ft) 619 613 617 622 628

Max Speed at 35,000 ft (mph) (ft) 610 601 601 608 611

Max Speed at 40,000 ft (mph) (ft) 600 595 596 603 606

Max Speed at 47,500 ft (mph) (ft) 575

Ferry Range with external tanks (mi) 1228 1052 1022 1317 1615

Takeoff Run Over 50-ft obstacle (ft) 2500 3660 3870 3925 4720

Empty Weight (lbs) 8633 10,093 10,681 10,840 10,890

Combat Weight (lbs) 11,070 13,791 14,255 14,857 14,981

Armament 1x37mm, 2x23mm 6x0.50in 6x0.50in 6x0.50in 6x0.50in

Rate of Fire (rpm) 450 (37mm), 650 (23mm) 1100x6 1100x6 1100x6 1100x6

Ammunition Capacity (rounds) 40 (37mm), 160 (23mm) 300x6 300x6 300x6 300x6

 

 

Ps I ve try to align the column properly to make it clear but It does not work. To clarify it I put some numbers in bold to highlight the difference. The climb rate and the time to climb to 40000 feet

Edited August 29, 2015 by Decibel dB