Rudder sensitivity - Saitek Combat rudder pedals - DCS 1.5

[speedbird5]

Hi all, I have excessive rudder sensitivity in the FC F-15 and DCS 1.5 with Saitek Combat rudder pedals on landing.

 

My toe brakes are set up so that if you apply braking, it applies braking to both brakes evenly - just like pressing the W key. I have tried setting the toe brakes individually and the problem persists.

 

Now, I don't want to get into a discussion about correct landing technique in the F-15.

 

I know and use the precise technique as per the flight manual and if I allow the aircraft to slow, without touching the rudder pedals or brakes, and then apply brakes below 50 knots directional control is OK.

 

However, one should be able to apply the brakes at 100 knots and not lose directional control.

 

On landing, when I apply the brakes at about 100 knots with the nose-wheel on the ground, if the nose of the aircraft diverges slightly from centre-line, then any rudder input to correct it causes the nose to over correct and I end up losing directional control and cannot keep it on the centre-line.

 

I can only successfully apply braking and rudder below 50 knots.

 

I have searched the forums at length and nothing seems to solve the problem.

 

I have adjusted the axis tuning extensively and no luck.

 

In Prepared3D with the VRS Superbug, the rudder and braking control is perfect and you can apply braking and rudder on landing at vey high speeds and can keep the aircraft dead straight.

 

I have verified the rudder controllers are recognized by Windows game controller settings.

 

Can someone with these rudder pedals and the FC F-15 verify that if you de-rotate on landing at about 100 knots, and put the nose-wheel on the ground, and you apply brakes, can you keep it dead straight from 100 knots to a full stop with rudder control and braking?

 

If you can, then can you share your axis settings for both the rudder and the toe brakes and whether you have individual toe brakes set.

 

I am trying to determine if there is a setting in DCS which works for these rudder pedals.

 

My current rudder axis setting is attached. I do not use the Saitek SST software.

Edited November 3, 2015 by speedbird5

[_Dredd]

I have each individual toe break set up for left/right. Never tried both applying symmetrically; can that be done properly to equally apply to both in sim?

 

Someone can probably answer this better then me.. I'd also be interested to know how actual Eagle Pilots approach this.

 

I'm at work so I can't properly check but upon landing if I want to engage brakes straight away say at greater than 50-80 knots I use 'Nose Gear Steering Disengage' (hold L-Alt - Q ? ) to prevent nose steer deflecting

(EDIT: this may be completely wrong procedure but seems to work, unless something else I'm doing then apply full brakes is just placebo effect); otherwise it requires some differential braking with a little bit of focus on toe pressure of pulsing either brake to correct direction of nose steer.

 

Sorry if that doesn't help your issue, :(

Edited November 3, 2015 by _Dredd

[SinusoidDelta]

Watch your track replay, the nose gear is probably locking up braking above 50 knots. It'd be nice if anti-skid were enabled for the nose gear too ED ;)

[_Dredd]

Watch your track replay, the nose gear is probably locking up braking above 50 knots. It'd be nice if anti-skid were enabled for the nose gear too ED ;)

 

Good point on Anti-skid.

Edited November 5, 2015 by _Dredd

[speedbird5]

Watch your track replay, the nose gear is probably locking up braking above 50 knots. It'd be nice if anti-skid were enabled for the nose gear too ED ;)

 

Tracks are broken in 1.5. The track has me landing on the grass to one side of the runway.

 

The nose-wheel would not have a braking system attached, therefore no anti-skid.

 

All the aircraft I have flown in real life (C130H Hercules, Falcon 900 and B737 classic and NG) have anti-skid on the main gear wheels only.

[SinusoidDelta]

Watch your jet in external view while braking. I remember the nose wheel would skid in 1.2, I don't know why because it has no brake as you said. Also, you can't apply sustained full brakes at 100 knots. The brake pulser or something else isn't modeled properly and you will go out of control.

[Pineapple Pete]

I am echoing speed bird's request for info and maybe curves for the brakes on the F15. I too have flown large airliners and corporate jets all over the world. It is very frustrating too get your arms around the F-15 in important things like a good ILS and landing only to corkscrew down the runway, unable to track the centerline. My settings are DZ O X and Y 100 and curve 0. Yes, I have tried other settings but I remain irritated with the nose wheel steering and brakes in the F-15.

[speedbird5]

I am echoing speed bird's request for info and maybe curves for the brakes on the F15. I too have flown large airliners and corporate jets all over the world. It is very frustrating too get your arms around the F-15 in important things like a good ILS and landing only to corkscrew down the runway, unable to track the centerline. My settings are DZ O X and Y 100 and curve 0. Yes, I have tried other settings but I remain irritated with the nose wheel steering and brakes in the F-15.

 

I have come to the conclusion that the simulation is deficient in it's modelling of rudder sensitivity and damping in the landing roll above 50 knots. It is quite unrealistic in that regard.

No amount of tweaking of the axis curves can fix it.

 

I think it needs changes to the flight model which are beyond the user's reach.

 

Pete, if you perform a landing as per the Belsimtek flight manual with respect to AoA to touchdown and use aerodynamic braking to get your speed below 100 knots, then de-rotate, place the nosewheel on the runway and then, without touching the brakes, allow the aircraft to slow to 50 knots, you can then confidently apply brakes and it will keep straight.

[Pineapple Pete]

Hi speedbird...I agree that does work. Not the best technique for limited runway length, as you know. Since I am still learning how DCS works, I am trying to learn the ILS mechanics. For instance, does the glide slope cross the runway threshold at 50' agl (assuming a 3.0 degree slope) or, does TCH depend on where you put the waypoint on the physical runway for the landing? I haven't had the time time to get to the bottom of that yet.

Suffice it to say that in practicing a few VMC approaches, I am not yet confident about where on the runway, the glide slope is flying me.

If the glide slope does not cross the threshold at 50' and in fact flies me beyond the touch down zone of the runway, then being able to brake at 80 or 100 konts might become muy importante, as they say here in KLAS.

At one level this is only a sim, I get it. But, everyone gets all worked up realism. So, let's be realistc. I like realism.

Take care speedbird. I hope they get serious about the brakes.

[speedbird5]

Hi speedbird...I agree that does work. Not the best technique for limited runway length, as you know. Since I am still learning how DCS works, I am trying to learn the ILS mechanics. For instance, does the glide slope cross the runway threshold at 50' agl (assuming a 3.0 degree slope) or, does TCH depend on where you put the waypoint on the physical runway for the landing? I haven't had the time time to get to the bottom of that yet.

Suffice it to say that in practicing a few VMC approaches, I am not yet confident about where on the runway, the glide slope is flying me.

If the glide slope does not cross the threshold at 50' and in fact flies me beyond the touch down zone of the runway, then being able to brake at 80 or 100 konts might become muy importante, as they say here in KLAS.

At one level this is only a sim, I get it. But, everyone gets all worked up realism. So, let's be realistc. I like realism.

Take care speedbird. I hope they get serious about the brakes.

 

I don't think the ILS implementation is that precise with respect to a TCH of 50'. I use the G/S down to about 300 feet and then select and maintain an aim point on the 500' markers with the VV. As the threshold disappears under the nose I flare and put the VV on the horizon.

 

I notice in the change log here http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147601 that they say for the F-15.....

 

F-15C

Infinite fuel after aerial refueling has been fixed

Transonic Roll-off eliminated

Wing rock effects implemented

Rudders have more authority

 

Could this change have affected the ground handling characteristics ?

Edited November 15, 2015 by speedbird5

[Pineapple Pete]

Hi Speedbird,

Well I just finished a flight with the a waypoint approximating a FAF. I then placed the final "landing" waypoint midway down the runway. While working very hard to to stay "in the slot", I followed the glide slope to the exact point where I placed the landing waypoint. I am doing this because I want to lower my minimums (I had 300 meters set) and land in the touch down zone of the runway. Next I will fly the same approach with "landing" waypoint in the touchdown zone. I'll let you know how that works.

Best to you.

[speedbird5]

Hi Speedbird,

Well I just finished a flight with the a waypoint approximating a FAF. I then placed the final "landing" waypoint midway down the runway. While working very hard to to stay "in the slot", I followed the glide slope to the exact point where I placed the landing waypoint. I am doing this because I want to lower my minimums (I had 300 meters set) and land in the touch down zone of the runway. Next I will fly the same approach with "landing" waypoint in the touchdown zone. I'll let you know how that works.

Best to you.

 

Pete, I do not use the flight planner for an ILS. I just use the ILS function by being in NAV mode and pressing 1 on my keyboard to bring up the crosshairs.

 

Here is a track of an ILS at Sochi and some screenshots over the threshold and the touch down point.

 

In this exercise I am merely following the G/S down to TD to see where I end up.

 

The pre-saved mission is one I use for landing practice. I start at about 1000 feet and it takes me a little time to get into the slot.

 

The tracks seem to be working again. Make sure you have version DCS 1.5.1.47025. You should be able to pause the track at any stage.

 

The first and second screen shots are over the threshold. The third and fourth are at touchdown.

 

As you can see the TCH is about 60 feet (Sochi is about 100 feet elevation) but the TD point is a fair way in.

 

(You probably know this, but to play my track, just save the track to your desktop and then double-click on it and DCS should open with the track loaded)

 

Would be interested to know if the track played back accurately on your setup.

F-15 landing.trk

Edited November 16, 2015 by speedbird5

[Pineapple Pete]

After our exchanges here I did some looking into the ILS in the F-15. I tired to set a standard FAF and then expanding the airport diagram and placing my next waypoint in the touchdown zone of the runway. The program would not let me make it a landing waypoint, only a flyover etc. When trying to change the waypoint to a landing waypoint the software would physically move the active waypoint to midpoint on the runway.

I have discovered that by flying the HUD steering cues on top of the flight path marker only, (not ADI, HSI) the steering cross would fly me to that midpoint position on the runway.

It was your post about being able to steer and stop the airplane that got me to thinking about landing distance available beyond the glide slope. A number which is always displayed on the Jepp 10-9A page.

I have yet to examine where the raw data ILS will fly me as I do this all of the time (with a flight director of course) in real life and I am (very new to sims in general and the F-15) I wanted to learn to fly and trust the HUD. I no longer do. Maybe Belsimtek will get their act together as I really enjoy the F-15 otherwise.

Best

[Pineapple Pete]

Hi Speerbird. Couldn't find a way to play the track. Still too new at the intricacies of this. Everything looked normal in your screen shots except in number 1 your steering cross is dead on the FPM but you are getting a fly down indication for the glide slope on your ADI.

Like I said before, my confidence is waning. I guess just fly with high enough minimums to continue visually and place the FPM in the touchdown zone.

[Barao]

I have the same problems with brakes at about 100 knots. I have CH pedal.

[speedbird5]

After our exchanges here I did some looking into the ILS in the F-15. I tired to set a standard FAF and then expanding the airport diagram and placing my next waypoint in the touchdown zone of the runway. The program would not let me make it a landing waypoint, only a flyover etc. When trying to change the waypoint to a landing waypoint the software would physically move the active waypoint to midpoint on the runway.

I have discovered that by flying the HUD steering cues on top of the flight path marker only, (not ADI, HSI) the steering cross would fly me to that midpoint position on the runway.

It was your post about being able to steer and stop the airplane that got me to thinking about landing distance available beyond the glide slope. A number which is always displayed on the Jepp 10-9A page.

I have yet to examine where the raw data ILS will fly me as I do this all of the time (with a flight director of course) in real life and I am (very new to sims in general and the F-15) I wanted to learn to fly and trust the HUD. I no longer do. Maybe Belsimtek will get their act together as I really enjoy the F-15 otherwise.

Best

 

I also found that you can only place the landing waypoint halfway down the runway and not at the threshold.

 

It's funny, but I fly exclusively with the HUD and that is what i was doing in the screenshots, I didn't even look at the ADI.

 

I will try an approach using the raw data on the ADI.

[speedbird5]

I have the same problems with brakes at about 100 knots. I have CH pedal.

 

Hmmm. This leads me to further suspect it needs changes to the flight model.

 

As I stated in my original post.....

 

In Prepared3D with the VRS Superbug, the rudder and braking control is perfect and you can apply braking and rudder on landing at very high speeds and can keep the aircraft dead straight.

 

Do you use your CH rudder pedals with FSX or P3D with the VRS Superbug or other aircraft?

 

If so, can you apply braking and rudder on landing at very high speeds and can keep the aircraft dead straight ?

Edited November 17, 2015 by speedbird5

[Pineapple Pete]

I use the Saitek Pro Flight pedals. As you know, I cannot keep the Eagle straight down the runway.

Additionally, when I can actually find the proper ILS for a given runway, which has been hit and miss so far, the cross pointers on the ADI work properly and the steering cross on the hud seems to indicate correctly.

If all was perfect, then the HUD should be mirroring everything the raw data is doing.

I still have no faith that this is correct. Why follow the hud to a point midway down the runway when you can't stop the beast?

Very frustrating as I really enjoy the F-15C.

[Pineapple Pete]

Just a little follow up for what it is worth. Using exactly the same setup for my brake axes, I went back and forth between the F-15 in 1.2 and 1.5 testing the stopping characteristics between the two programs.

Holding the brakes until 80% thrust was set, I then released the brakes and went into full burner. Flaps were set for takeoff. At 100 kias I then aborted the takeoff, thrust to idle and full brakes. I stopped straighter and truer in 1.2 every time. In 1.5 I often had to use some aileron to keep the airplane from dragging a wing.

Like I said for what it is worth.

[Faelwolf]

It's been this way for a very long time, and does not look to have been fixed in 1.5 Even with curves adjusted severely it still does the same thing. About the only thing to do is stay off the brakes or nose wheel steering until you've come down to a very low speed.

I only fly the A-10C, so can't speak to the other a/c, but on takeoff, after releasing the brakes, I turn off nose wheel steering once I break 50 knots, or I end up all over the runway, the slightest touch of rudder will over steer. It seems to be the biggest problem with the Saitek Combat rudder pedals. May be something in their drivers, hard to say. But, I certainly don't have this issue in other sims. They really do need to fix this.

[speedbird5]

........ It seems to be the biggest problem with the Saitek Combat rudder pedals. May be something in their drivers, hard to say. But, I certainly don't have this issue in other sims. They really do need to fix this.

 

No, it's not the Saitek Combat pedals. You answered it yourself when you said ..." But, I certainly don't have this issue in other sims. "

 

As I said in my original post, in the VRS Superbug in Prepar3D, these pedals allow me to apply max braking at 140 knots on touchdown and apply rudder and I have no problem staying straight.

 

I certainly agree they need to fix this.

[speedbird5]

Just a little follow up for what it is worth. Using exactly the same setup for my brake axes, I went back and forth between the F-15 in 1.2 and 1.5 testing the stopping characteristics between the two programs.

Holding the brakes until 80% thrust was set, I then released the brakes and went into full burner. Flaps were set for takeoff. At 100 kias I then aborted the takeoff, thrust to idle and full brakes. I stopped straighter and truer in 1.2 every time. In 1.5 I often had to use some aileron to keep the airplane from dragging a wing.

Like I said for what it is worth.

 

Great find Pete. This would confirm to me that they might have mucked things up when they increased rudder authority in the F-15C: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147601

 

I did the same as you and tried numerous high speed aborts in 1.5 for testing and could not keep it straight.

 

I have never tried DCS1.2, only 1.5.

 

Is it possible to have both installed at the same time? If so, how did you do it?

Edited November 20, 2015 by speedbird5

[speedbird5]

......Everything looked normal in your screen shots except in number 1 your steering cross is dead on the FPM but you are getting a fly down indication for the glide slope on your ADI......

 

Pete, I believe this to be a bug.

 

See this thread http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=152881 and this thread http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=152882

[Pineapple Pete]

Great find Pete. This would confirm to me that they might have mucked things up when they increased rudder authority in the F-15C: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147601

 

I did the same as you and tried numerous high speed aborts in 1.5 for testing and could not keep it straight.

 

I have never tried DCS1.2, only 1.5.

 

Is it possible to have both installed at the same time? If so, how did you do it?

 

Well, I am pretty dumb about computers so, when 1.5 came out I did a straight install and it runs in parallel with 1.2. I should say that after having both on my computer, my hard drive went down in flames so when all was fixed I reinstalled 1.2 with my modules and then installed 1.5. No problems.:music_whistling:

[Pineapple Pete]

Great find Pete. This would confirm to me that they might have mucked things up when they increased rudder authority in the F-15C: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147601

 

I did the same as you and tried numerous high speed aborts in 1.5 for testing and could not keep it straight.

 

I have never tried DCS1.2, only 1.5.

 

Is it possible to have both installed at the same time? If so, how did you do it?

 

Right on speedo! I have an another idea for an experiment regarding the ILS in the F-15 and I will let you know what I find. Regardless of my results, your suggestions are the right way to do it.