Close formation

[jef32]

Hi Ed Team

Before recently registering on this forum, i've always ask myself a question, and now, i hope to get an answer:

 

Why the AI virtual pilots in FC2 or DCS-FC3 are flying very far from each other, even if the player ask a close formation, but in the first Flaming Cliffs, you've been able to program them to fly correctly in a close formation ?

 

Why aren't them able to take-off in formation instead of n°2 and followers waiting that the plane just before had taken-off ?

 

It's not very realistic and i know you're able to program them to fly in close formation because UH-1H are able to flying in a close formation, so the DCS engine allows the close formations in other modules than FC3. Why not in FC3 ?

Edited December 9, 2015 by jef32

[GGTharos]

Actually not taking off in formation is fairly realistic. It is often either prohibited or not practical (it takes longer to do formation take offs than feed-on take offs when launching many planes).

 

But the technical answer is probably that the AI has acquired a more realistic flight model than before, so flying close formation is actually more difficult.

[jef32]

Ok but do you intend to make the formation flying more close in the future ?

[GGTharos]

I don't know what they intend to do.

[jef32]

[ame]

[/ame]

 

So, what did you said about silmutaneous take-off ?

[GGTharos]

Read what I said again, carefully, and watch this:

 

 

Formation takeoffs are often prohibited based on payload and meteorological conditions (Air to air payload is usually not prohibited AFAIK, but A2G payload usually is)

 

Formation takeoffs are inefficient in mass launches: They are too slow compared to feed-on launches. What the video doesn't show you is that the feed-on TOs are about 5-10 sec apart. You cannot do this with formation launches, since the pilots need time to line up the aircraft and do all the fun communication they need to to achieve a good formation TO. You end up with 20-30sec spacing instead of 5-10.

Edited December 10, 2015 by GGTharos

[kontiuka]

Just as an aside, the "finger four" formation seems to be the one formation in DCS where the AI fly pretty close to each other. Unfortunately, you can only set this formation from the mission editor. There's no radio "finger four" option. I hope they change that some day.

[Dee-Jay]

@ Jef32

 

 

So, what did you said about simultaneous take-off ?

 

Hi Jef32!

 

This is from the AFI11-2F-16V3 (unclassified) :

 

3.7. Formation Takeoff:

 

3.7.1. Formation takeoffs are restricted to elements of two aircraft.

 

3.7.2. Elements will be led by a qualified flight lead unless an IP or flight lead qualified squadron

supervisor is in the element.

3.7.3. To takeoff in formation, aircraft must be within 2,500 pounds gross weight of each other and symmetrically loaded. Consider symmetrical loading as those store loadings which do not require an abnormal trim or control application to counter a heavy wing or yaw during takeoff and acceleration to climb airspeed.

3.7.4. Do not make formation takeoffs when:

3.7.4.1. Runway width is less than 125 feet.

3.7.4.2. Standing water, ice, slush or snow is on the runway.

3.7.4.3. The crosswind or gust component exceeds 15 knots.

3.7.4.4. Loaded with live munitions (excluding air-to-air missiles, 20mm ammunition, 2.75 rockets, AGM-88, AGM-65, and night illumination flares).

3.7.4.5. Ferrying aircraft from contractor/AFMC facilities.

3.7.5. (USAFE) Weather must be 300 feet/1.6 km or the most restrictive pilot weather category in the flight, whichever is higher.

 

And this is from French CPSV (Consignes Permanentes de Sécurité des Vols):

 

5. DECOLLAGE EN PATROUILLE SERREE

 

"Les décollages en patrouille serrée peuvent être entrepris suivant le chargement des appareils et les conditions ambiantes.

Dans tous les cas ils sont interdits :

- de nuit ;

- avec une composante de vent de travers supérieure à 10 kt ;

- sur piste inondée ou verglacée ;

- en configuration dissymétrique ;

- lorsque les avions sont déclarés "lourds" ;

- avec des charges externes actives (bombes, roquettes)."

 

...

 

Same kind of restrictions applies for Close Formation Landing.

 

5.2. ATTERRISSAGE DES DEUX AVIONS

 

5.2.1. CONDITIONS D'EXÉCUTION

"Les conditions normales autorisées en exercice pour effectuer un atterrissage simultané à l'issue d'une présentation en patrouille serrée sont :

− avions de même type ;

− atterrissage de jour ;

− aérodrome parfaitement connu des pilotes ;

− piste sèche de type OTAN9(longueur : 2 400 m - largeur : 45 m) ;

− terrain JAUNE ;

− vent de travers ≤ 10 kt.

 

Close Formation Takeoff or Landing are delicate (relatively "dangerous") maneuvers and tiering for crews. There is no real operational benefits. Mostly performed for teaching/training purposes and flight demonstrations.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Dee-Jay