Operating the Radar

[Belphe]

Fellow Pilots,

 

With my friend joining the DCS Community (after I bombarded him with countless videos, screenshots and facts about this sim) he managed to convince me to take a break from "ground pounding" in my A-10C and jump inside a fighter cockpit instead.

 

I always liked the Su-27 so I chose to learn to fly this platform. Unfortunately, even after reading the DCS: Su-27 Flight Manual twice AND taking notes (!), watching loads of youtube videos and spending the last 6 days in the cockpit I'm still struggling to fully understand the laws of the Su-27 radar. Target's aspect hemispheres, "guessing" the range and elevation differences, generally smooth and fast target acquisition in all ranges - this is where I struggle. So...

 

Is there anything out there I don't know about that would "take my hand" and guide me like a child through the processes that govern radar usage on the Su-27? I know what buttons "do" - now I'd like to learn "why" and "how"...

 

All suggestions are welcome. Thank you in advance!

[Ultra]

Hey mangaroca, I don't have a ton of time in the 27, but I think I've got some of the basics down.

 

I find target aquisition in the 27 more difficult than in the F-15, but the Russian RWR giving reference altitude for spikes helps. At far ranges when you moves the radar vertical position it is moving much more than at close range so generally I find things by staying within the '0' elevation, sometimes the -1 or +1 if they are really low or high. Once I get closer it is more normal to set it to -1 or +1 to track if they are below or above. I've found I usually don't need to move the radar much past these limits since once I get that close, I've usually hard locked and am preparing for a launch. Once you've STT locked, the radar will auto follow your target and all you need to do is keep it in the max radar limits.

 

About radar modes, you probably know there are the 3 modes: head-on, chase, and interleaved. Using head-on or chase against an appropriate target will give you a farther detection distance than interleaved, but you have large detection penalties for using them at the wrong times, e.g. using head-on against a target flying away. So usually I just stick with interleaved to keep things simple. The detection range is acceptable against all targets. Note that if you switch to TWS mode, TWS is always in head-on mode. I don't use TWS a lot since it is blocked by any jamming, but sometimes it is helpful.

 

My general detection practice involves scanning the 0, -1, and +1 elevations slowly with priority on the 0 elevation. Make sure to use the info from your RWR spikes to help in detection. Also, note that just because your radar is set to 0 elevation, does not mean you are currently scanning that whole section. Sometimes you need to move the radar just slightly above or below within the 0 elevation to pick up contacts that are just ever so slightly above or below.

 

Hope this helps!

 

(PS: EOS is another story. I can give you some tips for that as well, if you'd like)

Edited December 17, 2015 by Ultra

[Belphe]

(PS: EOS is another story. I can give you some tips for that as well, if you'd like)

 

Thanks! Sure, if you've got the time I'd like to read as much as you've got to say! :)

[mvsgas]

Fellow Pilots,

 

With my friend joining the DCS Community (after I bombarded him with countless videos, screenshots and facts about this sim) he managed to convince me to take a break from "ground pounding" in my A-10C and jump inside a fighter cockpit instead.

 

I always liked the Su-27 so I chose to learn to fly this platform. Unfortunately, even after reading the DCS: Su-27 Flight Manual twice AND taking notes (!), watching loads of youtube videos and spending the last 6 days in the cockpit I'm still struggling to fully understand the laws of the Su-27 radar. Target's aspect hemispheres, "guessing" the range and elevation differences, generally smooth and fast target acquisition in all ranges - this is where I struggle. So...

 

Is there anything out there I don't know about that would "take my hand" and guide me like a child through the processes that govern radar usage on the Su-27? I know what buttons "do" - now I'd like to learn "why" and "how"...

 

All suggestions are welcome. Thank you in advance!

 

I'm not sure what videos have you seen, maybe we can help you here. What are you having difficulty specifically?

 

For example of a situation, so we can all see where we are at; Lets say AWACS or GCR call you with a bogey, lets say BRA 190 for 90 at 6km, hot. That tells us bogey is heading 190 from us, at 90 kilometers distance, 6 thousand meters high and heading our way.

- So for heading, just turn 190

- For range, On the left side of HUD, we just need to make sure the Range Scale is at least 100km and that the Expected target range (Number at the bottom center of the HUD) is set to 90. Why 90? AWACS/GCR told us the range of the bogey.

- Now for altitude, lets say we are flying at 2k meters. AWACS/GCR told us the target was at 6k meters. So on the right side of the HUD, we need to set the Relative Target Altitude (expected) to 4. Why 4? Because we expect the target to be 4k meters above our altitude.

- Last will be the PRF. AWACS/GCR said the bogey is heading our way. Using this information we can try to acquire the bogey at longer range by setting the PRF to high.

 

Now we just need to let the RADAR look, 2 to 4 seconds you do not see the contact, start the process again; call AWACS if able to verify targets BRA, check the expected target BRA adjusting the expected target range to say 80, 70, etc. Keep in mind this is probably happening very fast and will only take a few second depending of several factors.

 

Hope this help at least guide you on good start. I am terrible at A2A so hopefully the better pilots will chime in soon with their advises or tips.

Edited December 17, 2015 by mvsgas

[Ultra]

Thanks! Sure, if you've got the time I'd like to read as much as you've got to say! :)

 

Sure, so you probably know EOS is an infrared tracking system and is used to fire your heaters, the R27ET and R73. It has less range than your radar but it's still pretty good, like sometimes 50km, even more if the target has a larger heat signature. I find it sort of temperamental though. If you have the target radar hard locked (STT) and if the EOS is in range, you can simply turn it on to acquire your target in EOS additionally. I've found that since I am usually using EOS at closer ranges it requires greater elevation changes. It seems I generally don't have to go more than -5 or +5. Also many times if I am well within range for EOS, I will actually see the target immediately in EOS as I 'scroll' over it's elevation and it's marker will travel down the HUD. I think this is because the EOS acts more like a camera and 'sees' the target almost immediately. This may be confusing but you'll see what I mean when you're using it.

 

Here's the two really important points about EOS:

-There is NO IFF. You are only seeing a target's heat signature. There is no Radar IFF 'pinging' it.

-Because there is no Radar 'pinging', EOS is 'silent'. The enemy will not ever know when they are being seen or locked by EOS alone. If you lock them with both Radar and EOS, they will get the radar lock tone. This is why it is important to turn off your radar if your are trying to silently hunt someone.

 

Practicing is key. It starts to all come together in your mind when you actually use the systems. Once you understand it, it starts to become more natural to decide how to use the systems in combat.

[Belphe]

Hope this help at least guide you on good start.

 

Thanks! This is a very legit and clear guide. However, all me and my friend are doing at the moment is spawn on the same airfield, me in the Flanker and him in an Eagle, take off and try to lock one another... I know it's basic and probably way above your interest but that's how we're trying to learn.

 

Sometimes, we loose track of each other..... :D

 

We are definitely still within Close Combat zone so VS or BORE modes should be used but because they require visual to lock (they do, right?) and we simply can't spot each other flying in circles it causes issues... :) So, we try BVR calibrated instead but as this is a "long range" sensor the effects are poor at best...

 

Is there a way to scan for and track targets inside the Close Combat range but when one is unable to visually ID the enemy's location (say in a fog or heavy rain)? There must be... :(

 

Also, a really silly question... Do the "-" and "=" keys control only the zoom of the HDD or do they increase and decrease the actual radar range? AFAIK, radar has the same strength/range all the time and the arc on the HDD is there to show it but I'd better confirm.. :)

[Belphe]

Practicing is key.

 

I'm definitely practicing that tonight :joystick: - thanks again!

 

PS. As many around here, I am a happy owner of the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog. Does any of you proud Flanker drivers care to share their button layout? I'm curious how you managed to set up the so much needed radar controls on the throttle and joystick.

 

Thanks!

Edited December 17, 2015 by Belphe

[Ultra]

Thanks! This is a very legit and clear guide. However, all me and my friend are doing at the moment is spawn on the same airfield, me in the Flanker and him in an Eagle, take off and try to lock one another... I know it's basic and probably way above your interest but that's how we're trying to learn.

 

Sometimes, we loose track of each other..... :D

 

This may be because it sounds like you guys are flying pretty close to each other. It's actually sort of difficult to search for targets that are very close because the radar cone is smaller at close ranges, the target is moving faster in relation to your radar cone, and the elevation differences (for the radar, not physically) are larger. At closer ranges I usually switch to EOS.

 

We are definitely still within Close Combat zone so VS or BORE modes should be used but because they require visual to lock (they do, right?) and we simply can't spot each other flying in circles it causes issues... :) So, we try BVR calibrated instead but as this is a "long range" sensor the effects are poor at best...

 

Is there a way to scan for and track targets inside the Close Combat range but when one is unable to visually ID the enemy's location (say in a fog or heavy rain)? There must be... :(

 

In VS you can hold down the lock button to auto lock anything that comes into the radar cone. In the Eagle, VS will do it automatically (no need to hold the lock button). I never use Bore mode since VS is a larger search area, Helmet mode is also very helpful.

 

Also, a really silly question... Do the "-" and "=" keys control only the zoom of the HDD or do they increase and decrease the actual radar range? AFAIK, radar has the same strength/range all the time and the arc on the HDD is there to show it but I'd better confirm.. :)

 

I'm pretty sure it just controls the zoom of the HDD. I think the radar is at a constant power. Not 100% sure though.

 

 

EDIT: About the HOTAS, I have an X55. I put my HDD range on a rotary, my radar elevation on a rotary, and my target cursor on a HAT.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Ultra

[Belphe]

[***]

 

Your help is very much appreciated. ;)

[mvsgas]

I agree with Ultra. I think in close range like this there is not much radar work needed. Vertical scan and helmet cuing would be the best choices but Bore would also play a role. I also agree that only the HDD range changes, the RADAR is always the same range (power output AFAIK).

[mvsgas]

May I suggest, you and your friend take off and travel away from each other for "x" amount of time at "Y" altitude, turn around and try to find each other. I think that would be more beneficial to learning Radars.

[Belphe]

May I suggest, you and your friend take off and travel away from each other for "x" amount of time at "Y" altitude, turn around and try to find each other. I think that would be more beneficial to learning Radars.

 

That's exactly what we'll do - thanks for help!

[holimoli]

1. The radar is fixed. You cannot adjust the length nor make the radar cone smaller or bigger. All you can do is manipulate the radar cone in elevation and 30° left/right.

2. The radar can scan 60° up, 35°, and a total of 60° left/right

3. The expected range value does nothing to your radar cone/scan length. Again the radar cone is fixed!

4. The radar range (upper left on the HUD) just changes how information is displayed on the HUD. Set to 100km will display you bandits from 0-100km. The radar will still scan up to its full amount!!!. Again. The radar scan zone is fixed !!!! :)

5. The radar cone is 30° in width and 10° in height. Usually you will spot spot enemy F-15& Sus up to 120km range and aircraft with bigger RCS up to 180+km. Depends on the RCS of the plane though.

6. The radar needs some time (about 1-2sec) to scan an area. Or in other words you have to wait 1-2 sec before you will see any contacts displayed on the radar.

7. The radar has a 3 sec( I think its ~3) memory for bandits. So sometimes when u tilt your radar you will see contacts fade slightly and then regain solid after 1 sec.

 

 

About finding targets. You basically have to use the right PRF setting and scan always up/down and left/right. Get some scan patterns going. For exmaple: up up down down down down left up up up up right down down down down right up up up up left down down....etc... Of course the ups/downs depends on your altitude and expected range setting. You might not always have to scan down or up that much.

[Belphe]

***

 

Very informative! Thank you.

[holimoli]

4. The radar range (upper left on the HUD) just changes how information is displayed on the HUD. Set to 100km will display you bandits from 0-100km. The radar will still scan up to its full amount!!!. Again. The radar scan zone is fixed !!!! :)

 

Add: If your HUD range is set to 100km bandits further away will appear on the top of the HUD. ( Forgot to mention that :) )

 

 

I can go more into detail with the radar/expected range..etc. Whats your main problem with the radar?

[Belphe]

4. The radar range (upper left on the HUD) just changes how information is displayed on the HUD. Set to 100km will display you bandits from 0-100km. The radar will still scan up to its full amount!!!. Again. The radar scan zone is fixed !!!! :)

 

Am I right to assume that the further away the contact is the higher on HUD it will be displayed?

 

Again - massive "thank you" for taking the time to explain this. I will definitely have questions when I get myself in the air (I'm at work at the moment) so I will call again! ;)

[holimoli]

Am I right to assume that the further away the contact is the higher on HUD it will be displayed?

 

 

Exactly.. It's top-down view.

[Belphe]

Hi,

 

After the "weekend trials" I came up with the following questions:

 

1. Since the radar goes "all the way" what does the "expected target range" do to help in target acquisition?

 

2. The manual mentions twice that the TWS provides the pilot with more detailed information on the tracked target. Where is that "extra" info displayed and what is it? After "snapping" the designator on the target all that I get is the radar cone following the target outside the usual 120 degree limits and a very NOT desired auto lock (STT) when within 85% of the weapon's delivery range..

 

Thanks!

[mvsgas]

1. Expected target range help point the radar cone at the right direction. This and the expected altitude just help the radar look at the correct piece of sky to try to find the contact.

2. I think that is it, you can track it while maneuvering, AFAIK.

[holimoli]

1. Ill give you two explanations. It's usually used when you have AWACS/GCI available. Those will give you BRAA( Bearing Range Altitude Aspect) information.

For example you are flying at 3000m and AWACS reports: Bandit 180 for 40 5000m hot.

This basically means there is a bandit incoming from 180, 40km away, 2000m above you and heading towards you. To get the bandit on scope you have to make heading 180, set your radar HUD range to (50/100km),set your expected range to 40km and your elevation to +2. This will set your radar perfectly in position. In other words, your radar antenna will be directly pointing at the bandit.

 

Here is the 2nd "approach": The expected range is interlinked with your elevation. Your expected target range gives you control of how many degrees your radar will be raised or lowered per elevation. This means, having a higher expected range value will tilt your antenna less per elevation. And having a lower expected range value will tilt your antenna more per elevation respectively.

 

 

Edit.

2. Yes, that's it :)

Edited December 21, 2015 by holimoli

[Belphe]

Thanks again guys! Much obliged.

[Eihort]

Hi,

1. Since the radar goes "all the way" what does the "expected target range" do to help in target acquisition?

 

Just to clarify what he means by "all the way"....

 

Your radar is throwing energy out there that can be picked up by RWRs much farther than you can ever hope to even see them on your own radar. There's no setting to change your output power or anything else. Your radar is either on or off. Once you throw some RF out there, it's gone, and will keep going until it's attenuated by atmosphere to nothing, or bounces off something. This is why the best pilots know good emcon (Emissions Control), and don't run their radars on all the time every time, and instead learn to use the EOS as much as they can.

[DarkFire]

Also bear in mind that target size and to a lesser extent aspect ratio and target RCS will also have an effect on maximum target acquisition and lock ranges. The radar in the Su-27 will easily detect something the size of a B-52 or Tu-95 at over 200 Km whereas it will struggle to detect something small like an F-5 that has head-on aspect at 70 Km.

 

The best aids to building and maintaining SA in the Su-27 are an A-50 AWACS or an EWR radar. As others mentioned being able to point the radar in the correct direction makes a big difference and generally helps you find a target much faster than manual scanning. Your SPO-15 can also help with SA but doing this is dependant on having good intel about expected threats: because the SPO-15 actually displays signal strength, if you know what the target emitter is you can estimate range, something that western RWRs don't allow you to do.

 

Also bear in mind that the Su-27 radar has reduced detection & lock ranges when looking downwards for targets because the radar has to filter out ground clutter.

 

Another important reason why knowing target aspect is very useful is being able to set the correct PRF mode on the radar: high PRF for targets with a high approach speed and medium PRF for retreating or low closure rate (generally side-on) targets. Using the mixed PRF mode results in about a 25% reduction in maximum detection distance.

 

Hope all that made sense, I just got up and haven't had any coffee yet :)