Variant used in Gulf War?

[Stratos]

Wondering, is the RAZBAM variant the one used by France in the Operation Daguet? The french deployment to the 1991 gulf war against Iraq.

 

Thanks.

[jojo]

In the Gulf War it Mirage 2000C RDI S4, from Orange AB.

 

Razbam Is doing Mirage 2000C RDI S5, the same with some extra.

[Stratos]

Sounds close enought to my untrained eyes. Also IIRC the 2000 there were used exclusively for A-A escorts while the F.1CT were used for recon and ground attack.

[jojo]

Mirage F1CT were fielded from 1992, so post Gulf War.

 

But France deployed Jaguar and Mirage F1 CR, the later performing both recon and strike mission.

 

Mirage 2000C performed only AA task.

The Mirage 2000C was mainly a dedicated air defense fighter, pilot spent training 80% in AA and 20% in AG.

 

The situation changed today because Super 530D have been withdrawn in 2012, and we have better fighters to do AA with Fox 3 (Mirage 2000-5F and Rafale).

 

Recently they were paired with Mirage 2000D for AG task, carrying GBU-12.

The 2000C brings to the team a pair of 30mm gun (which is missing to 2000D) and better AA radar to find the tanker.

[Johnny Dioxin]

The French F1s also provided escort for the Jaguars - I have an interesting article about it in one of my modelling magazines.

[mattebubben]

The French F1s also provided escort for the Jaguars - I have an interesting article about it in one of my modelling magazines.

 

Well did they not mostly guide them?

(1 or 2 F1s guiding a Jaguar Strike Package to the target area) as they had better INS / Navigation systems then the Jaguars had.

[Johnny Dioxin]

tbh I can't remember the ins and outs - but I was intending to look it up again, anyway, as this situation had recently peaked my interest (from the Mirage F1 thread).

[jojo]

Well did they not mostly guide them?

(1 or 2 F1s guiding a Jaguar Strike Package to the target area) as they had better INS / Navigation systems then the Jaguars had.

 

It probably happened, but Jaguar were fitted in emergency with portable Trimble GPS.

 

And if Mirage F1 escorted strike aircrafts, then it was Mirage F1C (no INS), not F1 CR.

[Stratos]

Mirage F1CT were fielded from 1992, so post Gulf War.

 

You're right, it was a typo from my part. BTW, Starway the guy working on the Bucaneer had some pics with a Jaguar, it was a British Jaguar, not sure how it differs from the french Jaguar A, but without the upper wing Sidewinders can work great as a AI.

 

I think DCS it will be the perfect sim to replay ODS, we have many of the planes used there, we lack the damn terrain.

[jojo]

You're right, it was a typo from my part. BTW, Starway the guy working on the Bucaneer had some pics with a Jaguar, it was a British Jaguar, not sure how it differs from the french Jaguar A, but without the upper wing Sidewinders can work great as a AI.

 

I think DCS it will be the perfect sim to replay ODS, we have many of the planes used there, we lack the damn terrain.

 

Nevada is not so bad to build a kind of Desert Storm mission/ campaign.

[mattebubben]

It probably happened, but Jaguar were fitted in emergency with portable Trimble GPS.

 

And if Mirage F1 escorted strike aircrafts, then it was Mirage F1C (no INS), not F1 CR.

 

But it was the Mirage F1 CRs that guided the Jaguars not Mirage F1Cs.

 

My understanding is that the F1 CRs guided the Jaguars to the target area (using their Nav systems and Air-Ground mode on the Radar).

 

They carried their own bombs so they contributed in the attack.

 

And then after the attack they made a Recce sortie to determine the effect of the strike.

Edited April 14, 2016 by mattebubben

[jojo]

During the first days of the war, and until the coalition was sure that no Iraqi fighter was still flying, allied Mirage F1 were not allowed to penetrate war zone.

 

So Jaguar, performed their first missions without Mirage F1 CR.

 

Then allied Mirage F1 were allowed to participate.

Off course the Mirage F1 CR fitted with quite accurate INS system was used to guide some Jaguar's missions. And the Mirage F1 CR were used with bombs and ventral 2200L tank.

Pairing F1 CR with Jaguar was a way to avoid confusion and friendly fire.

 

But I'm not sure that the Mirage F1C really performed AA escort.

 

To my knowledge they were deployed to Qatar to perform CAP with Qatari's Mirage F1Q.

[mattebubben]

Yea i im pretty sure the French Mirage F1Cs only served as CAP.

 

Since by the Time the Mirage F1s were cleared to serve over Iraq the Iraqi Airforce was no longer a threat.

 

And i think most Strike packages after the first few days were un escorted (with Fighter CAPs nearby if needed but no close dedicated escorts)

 

And with the number Other more formidable fighters like F-15s F-18s and Mirage 2000 etc i would think they would draw Cap duty over Iraq before any french F1s would first because they are more capable and also because that lessens the risk of a potential Fratricide.

[Stratos]

Nevada is not so bad to build a kind of Desert Storm mission/ campaign.

 

Maybe to have some fun, but the real deal will be a lot more useful. You know how many planes and choppers we have (or will have in the near future) that fought there?

 

 

Coallition:

F-15C

A-10A

Mirage 2000

F-5E

F/A-18C

F-14

Gazelle chopper

 

Iraq:

MiG-29A

Su-25A

MiG-21Bis

L-39

 

And several planes that are being worked both as payware and mods and that can work as stand ins.

 

Aviodev Mirage F.1

A-7E Corsair

MiG-23ML

Jaguar MK.I

Bucaneer

the A-4E can work as a Kuwaiti A-4KU

 

And of course tons of AI's

 

F-117

Tonkas (I think Polychop mentioned one for the future)

B-52

CH-53

C-130's

E-3

S-3 Vikings

Apaches...

 

I still can't understand why there is no Desert Storm map in the works.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Stratos
Added some birds...

[jojo]

Oh yes, Desert Storm map would be cool. But I was speaking about short term solution.

Moreover Desert Storm map would be huge, and transit to mission area could be boring...

[mattebubben]

A map covering parts of northern Kuwait aswell as parts of Iraq and Iran would be nice.

 

As it could be used for a number of different scenarios.

 

And it you include a part of the ocean (Kuwait city / parts of the Iraqi/Iranian coast)

 

and you would have good spots for carriers aswell.

 

But then again we do have the Straight of Hormuz on the way and that will have to do for now =).

 

Since while its not Iraq is it similar terrain etc.

[jojo]

A map covering parts of northern Kuwait aswell as parts of Iraq and Iran would be nice.

 

Have checked the size if Kuwait ? With a jet you would cross it in less than 10 minutes :smilewink:

 

And allied aircraft mostly departed from Saudia Arabia. So would need it for Desert Storm scenario.

[mattebubben]

Have checked the size if Kuwait ? With a jet you would cross it in less than 10 minutes :smilewink:

 

And allied aircraft mostly departed from Saudia Arabia. So would need it for Desert Storm scenario.

 

 

Have checked the size if Kuwait ? With a jet you would cross it in less than 10 minutes

 

And allied aircraft mostly departed from Saudia Arabia. So would need it for Desert Storm scenario.

 

Well most of the Air bases they operated from is pretty deep into Saudi Arabia so that would make the map a bit big.

 

So if you still want large parts of Iraq (up to Baghdad)

And some parts of Iran (For a potential Iraq/Iran Scenario which is feel it would be a waste not to do if ur making that region anyway)

 

There are only limited parts of Saudi Arabia you can add without making the map to large.

 

I think there is only 1 "Major" airbase that was used during the Gulf War that is close enough to make it into the map if you dont want the map focused on Saudi Arabia and not Iraq/Iran.

 

And i think the only US aircraft to operate from that airbase were F-16s.

 

I did some Quick google maps work and i think something like this would probably work pretty well.

 

It includes large chunks of Iraq all of Kuwait 1 Millitary airbase + some large civilian airports in Saudi Arabia, a region of Iran including 1 or 2 "large" military airbases and a decent chunk of coast line / ocean where you can park ur carriers.

 

But i think it would be hard to make a Large enough map to include all Air Bases / Locations important for the Gulf War.

 

I feel something like this would be OK.

 

It would not be too large while at the same time including alot of the important locations for the war.

 

Maby you reduce the focus some on iran and focus more in Iraq but i feel if you are doing Iraq / Desert storm you might as well include Iran for a Iran/Iraq Scenario.

 

And this could be the Detailed zone with more surrounding area being just empty land like in the Caucasus map (That would give possible carriers more room if they did not want to be so close to the coast)

 

But yea a Map in this area would be cool.

 

But as stated i think we will have to Settle for the Straights of hormuz map for now when it comes to Middle eastern maps =P since i doubt they will make two maps that are so close to Eachother.

 

I feel like a European or Asian map is much more likely as further maps go.

[jojo]

IMHO Hormuz map is too small for fast jet...

 

If I agree Iran-Irak scenario would be cool too, Mirage 2000 has no part in it, contrary to Desert Storm. And this was the starting point of the topic.

[jojo]

Picture gallery of FAF during Desert Storm

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/mediatheque/photos/guerre-du-golfe?nav=web

 

Edited April 14, 2016 by jojo

[Stratos]

Thanks for sharing the gallery jojo, some nice pics there.

 

I agree in that SoH map is too small, and it also depicts only a "what if conflict area", now the area posted by mattebubben will be good enough I think, and includes tons and tons of empty desert.

[Johnny Dioxin]

Okay, I found the article I mentioned - and it was F1CRs.

 

It was actually about a French Jaguar pilot who had someone shoot a rifle round through his canopy and helmet (Capitaine Alain Mohagne) - so yes - the golden shot AK-47 does exist!!

 

It doesn't actually mention the exact role of the Mirage aircraft - just mentions "in partnership" - which could be anything - but the photo shows the Jaguars retrurning from a strike mission, in tight, joint formation with the F1CRs, which have AA weapon loads.

 

Speaks for itself, I think.

 

Having said that - it's entirely possible that the F1CRs were participating in the strike, too.

 

Edit: Just found this website, listing the aircraft participating in Desert Storm. The F1 is there, as is the Mirage 2000C.

 

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/operation-desert-storm-military-aircraft.asp

 

M2K:

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=232

Edited April 15, 2016 by Brixmis

[emg]

Pretty sure they won't make an Iraq map as long as there is active warfare IRL.