Replacing the stick

[SirBunker]

My old flightstick is finally starting to show symptoms of being too old and worn out and I'm looking at the options of what to get in its place. I have a relatively new CH Pro Throttle so I don't want to buy a whole new HOTAS, but unfortunately the stick-only choices from the big-name manufacturers are quite lacking.

 

The CH Fighterstick would've been a natural choice but it lacks twist rudder (pedals are a no-go due to space issues). I stumbled upon VKB but only their cheapest stick, Cobra M5, was in stock and I had to resort to youtube videos to actually get detailed info on its features.

 

So in short, I'd greatly appreciate if anyone knows of any smaller manufacturers like VKB that produce joysticks. What I basically need as minimum features are a twist rudder, 2-3 hats and a few buttons.

 

Thanks in advance, and don't mind telling me straight if I'm out of luck with this situation. :joystick:

[Sokol1_br]

Cobra M5 is not VKB joystick * - is Defender brand, although projected by VKB staff.

 

This model in the last revision don't have the planed quality that VKB aims for their new Gladiator and Gunfighter line, is only a generic of not know brand joystick, with better layout/features than others in their price range.

 

Since "twist rudder" is one of you pre-requirements, you are limited to:

 

Thrustmaster T.1600M (at least use HALL sensor in X, Y axis).

 

Saitek/Logitech" entry level twist rudder models - all use cheap potentiometers in all axis - run away from then. :)

 

VKB Gladiator (1) - GMR sensors in X,Y and twist rudder, so promise be the best option with this feature.

 

Are the Saitek X-xx models with twist rudder but they are sold only in HOTAS combo.

 

BTW - For narrow spaces, Tm TFRP rudder pedal come to rescue. :)

 

http://www.thrustmaster.com/pt_BR/press/thrustmaster-tfrp-rudder-pedals-o-primeiro-sistema-de-leme-de-direcao-com-tecnologia-smart-par

 

* This confusion is because that joystick (Cobra M5) are used to be sold by VKB Netherlands dealer.

(1) Another probable confusion, the original VKB Gladiator will by not available for Europe, Asia and Latin America markets.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[SirBunker]

*snip*

 

Ah sorry if I misunderstood things about the Cobra M5.

 

While the entry-level sticks like the Extreme 3D Pro and T-16000M can be great, they only have one hat, contain buttons at the base on the lower left which are pretty reduntant for me (with HOTAS, the keyboard is easier and more natural to reach if i take the left hand off the throttle) and, best to my knowledge, feel very plasticky when fumbled. I've used the Logitech one before and while it was otherwise a good stick for its price, I felt it was hard to do any small precise maneuvers. I've researched the Logitech/Saitek/Thrustmaster sticks and my disappointment in them together with finding out about companies like VKB is the reason I created this thread.

 

What caught my eye with the Defender Cobra M5 were the two triggers, a third trigger on the lower part of the stick (seems perfect for MiG-21 wheel brakes), two hats, a very sturdy look and rather cheap price even after taxes + shipping. I tried looking up some info on the inferiority of the latest model compared to the originals, but it's all technical stuff which I have no idea how much it affects gameplay (if at all). To me, it still looks like a good bang for the buck.

 

I googled VKB Gladiator and even found a thead here on eagle.ru. Looks great, but apparently it won't be out until late this year?

 

Anyways, thank you for helping me, I'll consider my choices for the time being. :thumbup:

[Sokol1_br]

This Cobra M-5 could be a good joystick if the manufacturer continues using VKB controller and sensor used for briefly period (end of 2012) instead opt for more cheap versions version with analog contactless sensor (VKB sensor is digital) an USB controller based on obsolete ATMEGA8.

 

Other reason that Cobra M-5 now is practically dead on makert is that - dont know the reason - are sold only in Russia and CIS market. Few units are exported for Western markets.

 

This new VKB line that promise by more accessible - but before hit the market always has the "imbroglio" with Europe, Asia, Latin America markets reserved for other brand - and for few buttons "issue" the PRO version can use Cougar and Warthog grips or Cobra M-5 grip.

 

And with some DIY grips CH F-16 or Suncom F-15.

 

For Gladiator (official) info follow this thread on other forum, made by USA VKB partnership:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/22481-t-rudder-mkiv-pedals-gladiator-and-gladiator-pro-joystick-pr/

 

Or this thread in ED forum - made by... "fans". :)

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=138705

[kingair09]

необходима срочная помощь!The urgent help is necessary!

 

После экспериментов с настройками экрана (хотели получить изображение на три дисплея) - имеем одно узкое изображение на одном мониторе! Меню настроек недоступно. Как восстановить значения графики по умолчанию!?:(

After experiments with screen options (wanted to receive the image on three displays) - it is had one narrow image on one monitor! The menu of options is inaccessible. How to restore values of a drawing by default!?:(

[Dami]

What caught my eye with the Defender Cobra M5 were the two triggers, a third trigger on the lower part of the stick (seems perfect for MiG-21 wheel brakes), two hats, a very sturdy look and rather cheap price even after taxes + shipping. I tried looking up some info on the inferiority of the latest model compared to the originals, but it's all technical stuff which I have no idea how much it affects gameplay (if at all). To me, it still looks like a good bang for the buck.

 

Well, there is a way to make a decent joystick from Cobra M5, but it includes a bit of DIY.

 

I've modified my Cobra with customized mechanics made by Roman Baur (BRD). The mechanics mod itself costs around hundred bucks and needs about 4 hours of work to install it inside the Cobra. After this modification you get something unprecedented.

[Sokol1_br]

Yes, BAUR make the best cost/benefit CAM gimbal upgrade: :)

 

http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=882

 

Can be used for other joysticks - maybe they need new base box.

[Dami]

Actually, you can build any joysick using the kit from Roman, but you would have to spend a lot of time customizing your handle in order to place it onto his mechanics. (I dare add, that the cable opening of its upper part on which the grip itself is mounted, is relatively small and you will have to put some effort pushing the cables through it)

 

On the contrary, making a new base box is a lot simpler - some plexiglas + a good glue + some fancy tape or just paint it and you're all done.

[SirBunker]

Thanks for the info but I'd rather settle with a pre-assembled solution. The kit also costs more than the regular joystick with taxes and shipping :3

[Sokol1_br]

Originally Posted by SirBunker View Post

What caught my eye with the Defender Cobra M5 were the two triggers, a third trigger on the lower part of the stick (seems perfect for MiG-21 wheel brakes), two hats, a very sturdy look and rather cheap price even after taxes + shipping. I tried looking up some info on the inferiority of the latest model compared to the originals, but it's all technical stuff which I have no idea how much it affects gameplay (if at all). To me, it still looks like a good bang for the buck.

 

As I know a little about VKB since ~2004 and follow Cobra M5 development in (RiP) Sukhoi forum:

 

 

Cobra M5 V1 (dont use this V# in name, to identify versions is need check firmware revision #).

 

- USB Controller based on ATMEGA8 - a old and obsolete mc for 2008/9 when the joy hit market, with very low operation frequency, used because manufacturer don't approve a 0,8$ more version.

- VKB MaRS sensors (GMR - Giant Magnetoresistance, more advanced than HALL sensor) in digital BUS mode in X,Y axis.

 

Cobra M5 was originally projected as part of low cost HOTAS for Thustmaster, that seems drop the project in favor of low manufacture cost T.16000M, so the stick was made by Defender and the throttle was adapted by Gametrix in their ECS throttle reusing Saitek X-36 throttle molds, since molds is the more expensive part in joystick project.

 

Since was sold basically in Russian market, the simmers there know that ATMEGA8 was obsolete due the famous DIY USB controller Mindaugas Mjoy8/16 from 2004.

The joystick dont sold well.

 

Cobra M5 V2 - briefly sold in Q3/4 of 2012.

 

- VKB Njoy32 ARM32 based controller - the more advanced, powerful and flexible joystick controller in the market, joystick profiles are stored in controller EPROM, dont need Windows software like TARGET, Manager, SST (and their eventually BOSD). :)

 

- VKB MaRS sensors mode in X,Y axis.

 

Basically the same electronics used latter by VKB in their Mamba and Gladiator joysticks.

Note. VKB allow Defender use their Njoy32 project for free, to help improve the joystick.

 

Cobra M5 V3 - actually on the market

 

- USB controller again based on ATMEGA8.

- Contactless sensor (think KMZ41) in analog BUS mode in X,Y axis.

 

This "new" electronics was sold for manufacturer by another sly Russian engineer, and the rule "profit at all cost" prevail to make a low production cost version.

The Cobra M5 joystick now don't have any more VKB "heritage" unless the design. Still don't sold well and have irregular production, so VKB drop the use of their grip in his Mamba models (discontinued).

 

In all models the throttle and twist rudder axis use low* cost potentiometer.

 

*Low cost means really low, back in ~2009 VKB guy say that in China they cost ~0,01$ if buy in 1000+ batch. Expect quality/longevity from then is fool, like for the ones used in other "entry-level" joystick from know brands.

 

For DIY oriented person all this flaws can be improved relatively easy and with little cost. :)

Edited June 8, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[bouncerj21]

Hi Sokol1_br

 

I have just PM'd BAUR on another forum but was wondering if he had a website with all of his products on ?

 

Thanks

[Sokol1_br]

No, he don't have website only this sales topic (linked) in Avia-sim.ru forum. And developments topics in another forum section.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[retired_old_sarge]

Check E-BAY Not all controllers are sold only in pairs/sets.

 

On E bay you can get stand alone throttles or sticks either one.

 

I just got a stand alone throttle X52, and X52 pro throttle as well as a stand alone X52 pro Joy stick, and a FFB2 joy stick all for a total of less then $150.00. the X52 throttle I actually won the bid on and got it for $20.00.

I also won the bid on Saitek pro rudder pedals and got them NEW for $75.00