How should I map HFR/ENT/BFR to my joystick ?

[anlq]

Since M2000c radar loses locking constantly, I have to switch to HFR to maintain lock, and reduce Radar Scan Angle to keep it focusing to target (As I read someone said so on this forums). I tried mapping these functions to my Joystick (X-52 Pro) but none working.

When I press Joystick buttons in option, those buttons are highlighted but they're dead during the game (buttons don't move). Other radar functions like cursors/elevation/range are able to be mapped to my joystick.

Anyone has solution for this ?

Im using X-52 pro with G-27 pedals btw.

 

P/s: what radar mode should I use while chasing runaway target ? target within 20km at the same altitude running away doesn't appear on my radar. (assume that I already pointed radar beam to his position).

 

Plz don't notice my funny English. :D (actually it's not funny, I'm bad at english writing in my school).

[nomdeplume]

I use the 3-pos switch abstractions for this, although I do recall the button not being animated previously. What version of DCS World are you running?

[anlq]

I'm using 1.5 open beta latest update. buttons are functioning right now.

[gavagai]

Since M2000c radar loses locking constantly, I have to switch to HFR to maintain lock, and reduce Radar Scan Angle to keep it focusing to target (As I read someone said so on this forums).

 

Should that make a difference in STT mode? It makes sense for TWS.

[anlq]

Should that make a difference in STT mode? It makes sense for TWS.

 

As I remember Zeus67 said, the M2000c radar works as intended, but it loses locking everytime the target goes beaming (flying perpendicular to your aircraft). The smaller the target, the greater chance you will lose locking (I can shoot down Su-27>MiG29>MiG21). It's really weird that MiG21 survives most of my long range offensive with Super350D just by beaming. Then someone said we need to switch back to ENT to remain locking, especially when target goes below you, below the horizon. So this is why I need a hotkey on my Joystick to use it in these cases.

And because M2000c is an high altitude inteceptor, Super350D is used on big target like bomber mostly, so losing lock on smaller target is a feature. :noexpression::noexpression::noexpression:

[gavagai]

My understanding is that ENT doesn't have STT, which is necessary for guiding the 530. Only HFR has STT.

 

Good luck with mapping your controls though. I suspect that something may not be right with the 2000's radar because it loses lock in STT even when the target isn't beaming and isn't below the horizon. It's still beta, after all, and lots of changes are coming.

[Azrayen]

I suspect that something may not be right with the 2000's radar because it loses lock in STT even when the target isn't beaming and isn't below the horizon.

It does?:huh:

Would you have a track showing this, please?

[sedenion]

I don't have tested recently, but this lock problem seam to still persist from the beginning.

 

There is roughly two positions about this radar behavior:

 

1) "This is not bug, it's a feature". Assuming this lock losing is the result of some "beam effect" modelisation, and so, this is so cool because this is so realistic (to have a not reliable radar).

 

2) "This is unsupportable, what is this 'Teflon' radar ?". Considering this lock losing is very annoying and appear mostly on random basis or when target only turn a bit.

 

From my last experience, i am in the second category. And from what my "intuition" says, i am in the second category too.

 

I don't know everything about how a radar works, but i just can't imagine a radar losing a lock only because the target's spot appears to have near the same closing speed (relatively immobile) as the ground's noise: What a brutal and gross filtering:

 

- I can't imagine engineers have not developed some more smart filtering

- I do imagine that a real target spot (depending distance and target) appear more clear than the ground's noise, and so can be "spoted".

 

- I can't imagine it's so easy for a target to perform a "beaming" just by going some nearly perpendicular from radar beam during half-second.

- I do imagine that it's in fact HARD (for a moving target) to have the exact same "relative speed" as the ground's noise ( to be confused with it ).

Edited June 30, 2016 by sedenion

[nomdeplume]

- I do imagine that it's in fact HARD (for a moving target) to have the exact same "relative speed" as the ground's noise ( to be confused with it ).

It's not just the ground that the doppler notch filters out, but also things on the ground: cars, trains, etc. So to filter them out it has to reject quite a large range of speeds.

 

Also keep in mind that radar technology improved over time. I don't know the specific capabilities of the Mirage 2000C RDI's radar, but given its design purpose was primarily to engage bombers at high altitudes, it's not unreasonable to think it may have quite a few 'ridiculous' limitations.

[mvsgas]

Because they added a few new keys to the Mirage, you may have to delete your old joystick config file and create a new one. Once I did that, I was able to map PRF keys to my joystick.

 

About the radar loosing track, AFAIK, the RDI radar in the Mirage is an older radar so I don't see how it would not be affected by a target beaming or targets getting below them (using ground clutter). The F-15 radar is larger and more capable and it can loose target this way as well. Try getting below the target, this should help with maintaining lock.

 

With that said, RDI is still WIP, more here http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=161206

Edited June 30, 2016 by mvsgas

[sedenion]

It's not just the ground that the doppler notch filters out, but also things on the ground: cars, trains, etc. So to filter them out it has to reject quite a large range of speeds.

 

Hmm, i am ok that this kind of gross filtering is applied in PSID/TWS mode, to prevent a troll in Ferrari on highway to be spotted as a target. But in PSIC/SST, (high focus, continuous beam, target follow), this kind of filter with large tolerence does not appear as a good idea, and the fact is that mean that the followed target just needs to do some random perpendicular manoeuvers to be lost...

 

Also keep in mind that radar technology improved over time. I don't know the specific capabilities of the Mirage 2000C RDI's radar, but given its design purpose was primarily to engage bombers at high altitudes, it's not unreasonable to think it may have quite a few 'ridiculous' limitations.

 

I well understand that a 70's/80's radar is not a 90's/2000's radar, but that does not mean the 80's radar is necessarly a "teflon" radar... the RDM was, and that was perfectly known. But the RDI one... ?

Edited June 30, 2016 by sedenion

[Pikey]

I've noticed OB has some issues mapping those keys.

I've noticed that the Radar losing lock as rolling is still there as a problem, surprised its being queried actually?

[sedenion]

I've noticed that the Radar losing lock as rolling is still there as a problem, surprised its being queried actually?

 

Ok, that's roughtly what i noticed 4 mounth ago... so, this problem still persist...

[jojo]

I don't have tested recently, but this lock problem seam to still persist from the beginning.

 

There is roughly two positions about this radar behavior:

 

1) "This is not bug, it's a feature". Assuming this lock losing is the result of some "beam effect" modelisation, and so, this is so cool because this is so realistic (to have a not reliable radar).

 

2) "This is unsupportable, what is this 'Teflon' radar ?". Considering this lock losing is very annoying and appear mostly on random basis or when target only turn a bit.

 

From my last experience, i am in the second category. And from what my "intuition" says, i am in the second category too.

 

I don't know everything about how a radar works, but i just can't imagine a radar losing a lock only because the target's spot appears to have near the same closing speed (relatively immobile) as the ground's noise: What a brutal and gross filtering:

 

- I can't imagine engineers have not developed some more smart filtering

- I do imagine that a real target spot (depending distance and target) appear more clear than the ground's noise, and so can be "spoted".

 

- I can't imagine it's so easy for a target to perform a "beaming" just by going some nearly perpendicular from radar beam during half-second.

- I do imagine that it's in fact HARD (for a moving target) to have the exact same "relative speed" as the ground's noise ( to be confused with it ).

PRF: Pusle Repeat Frequency

LRF: Low ...

MRF: Medium...

HRF: High...

 

There are different PRF which give different capacities to the radar.

The ground clutter is different in LRF, MRF and HRF.

 

The RDI requirement was to have good look down/ shoot down capacity. Something the RDM doesn't have.

 

The HRF offers the best range in look down. But you need Doppler filters to eliminate ground clutter. HRF also allow to have instantaneous closing velocity readout, so in fact you can have RWS and velocity scan at the same time.

LRF is almost immune to beaming, but it produces a lot of ground clutter. So not good for look down. In fact AG map mode use LRF.

The computing power of the time (at least in France) didn't really allow to use MRF which is a compromise between the 2.

And this computing power was also a problem at that time to deal with Doppler filters.

 

So by comparison, the F-15's APG-63 mainly uses MRF, and switch to HFR to guide AIM-7 Sparrow. So you can break is lock by beaming his radar in look down, just the same as any FC3 and real aircraft.

Beaming is real tactic.

 

To prevent target beaming after tour shot, you have to dive to keep it in look up.

 

More modern aircraft with more powerful computing power, like Mirage 2000-5 (but not only) have an auto management of the PRF (acronym is GAFO in French), which switch automatically between PRF depending on targets aspect and altitude. Plus it can guide its Fox 3 missiles in TWS, so it's harder to defeat.

[sedenion]

So by comparison, the F-15's APG-63 mainly uses MRF, and switch to HFR to guide AIM-7 Sparrow. So you can break is lock by beaming his radar in look down, just the same as any FC3 and real aircraft.

Beaming is real tactic.

 

That's ok, i think we identified the problem, that is not related to "beaming" and explains why i, gavagai, Pikey and several other are complaining about the "tefal" effect of the current RDI modelisation:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2827498&postcount=13

[jojo]

How much do you roll to break the lock ?

[sedenion]

How much do you roll to break the lock ?

 

In my memory ? Not much... 45/60° was sufficient. So to speak: the manoever you need, to simply grab the target's square in the HUD's center.

 

The scenario is roughly the following:

1) Ho, a target in my VTB... lock it !

2) Ho, the target is at my right, lets go !

3) Ho shit, where is my target ?

 

I repeated this scenario several times...

[Azrayen]

It's not the roll angle, it's the roll rate (in PID only).

The bug is known. Yes, for a long time. It is not yet fixed. Yes, it's annoying.

[gavagai]

Oh, so the roll is probably it then. Do you still want a track?:)

[sedenion]

It's not the roll angle, it's the roll rate (in PID only).

 

Are we supposed to have a target box in PID ? I well remember having this kind of losing lock in what i think was PIC mode: just before or just after launching a 530D. I still need to re-test all that things to confirm what is better or not since 4 mounth.

[jojo]

Yes, just do that...