How to use the VOR/ILS (thin) needle of the HSI?

[Maulkin]

I set the ILS to a known ILS beacon and confirm that the morse code is heard. The "Needle 2 Flag" is cleared, but that thin needle never points anywhere? How do I get that to work?

[Steph-JJ]

Look at this Thread,

maybe helpful

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=175390

[Maulkin]

Thanks Steph but as far as I could see it was mostly referring to TACAN which is the wide needle.

 

Keep in mind I have read the information in the latest flight manual and I have gone through both the navigation and ILS landing tutorials a few times each.

 

I set the ILS and i can hear the tone but the needle is stuck at the 135 degrees position. Am I missing a mode setting somewhere?

[Zeus67]

Thanks Steph but as far as I could see it was mostly referring to TACAN which is the wide needle.

 

Keep in mind I have read the information in the latest flight manual and I have gone through both the navigation and ILS landing tutorials a few times each.

 

I set the ILS and i can hear the tone but the needle is stuck at the 135 degrees position. Am I missing a mode setting somewhere?

 

Check the HSI mode knob.

[Pikey]

Isn't the thin needle just for VOR navigation which is shared from the same transceiver? I've never expected it to move for ILS, ILS is something I only observe through the HUD. If im tuned to a VOR station then the needle moves as expected.

[Maulkin]

Thanks Pikey I was just starting to suspect that and test it out. I'll give that a shot.

[Frederf]

It's just for VOR and I think the ground controlled intercept which isn't modeled. The thin needle has nothing to do with ILS.

[firmek]

It's just for VOR and I think the ground controlled intercept which isn't modeled. The thin needle has nothing to do with ILS.

Correct, it works with VOR - which if I'm correct there are as much as 4 VOR stations on Caucasus map. Easy way to test it is with Kutaisi 113.60.

As for confusion regarding ILS, I think it's fully justified. First, the freq. is set using ILS know - ok, this is a minor thing. Setting a correct ILS frequency while in range of the ILS transmitter clears the warning flag from HSI. What's most important however is that manual states that HSI NAV mode works with both, VOR and ILS. Page 104:

"NAV (main INS/VOR navigation mode):

In this mode, the HSI connects with the INS and displays waypoint navigation information along with bearing to selected

VOR/ILS station."

[Maulkin]

Thanks Firmek! Now that I know what to look for I found the other three:

 

Mineralnye Vody : 117.1

Krasnodar : 115.8

Tbilisi : 113.7

 

It's gratifying to finally verify that I can get the thin needle to work. :)

[firmek]

I'm glat to hear that I could help just a bit. However, the question about ILS remains open. If yes, then there should be a bug report, if not manual should be updated.

[Frederf]

Every single NTTR TACAN is a VORTAC (VOR-TACAN) so you can test Mirage VOR on something like 23 different stations. On Caucasus there are other types of station.

 

Hexagon = VOR

Hexagon with box = VOR-DME

Hexagon with hollow ears = TACAN

Hexagon with filled ears = VORTAC

With VORTAC if you know the channel there is a table to look up the VOR frequency. All VORTACs have DME.

 

When you input an ILS frequency into the VOR-ILS panel the HSI thin needle should not point to anything. If there is any bug it is the HSI needle 2 orange flag changing to valid since there is non valid needle 2 indication.

 

In normal airplanes ILS and VOR are two separate radio panels and one might dial in a VOR and an ILS on their respective panels and use both signals simultaneously. The Mirage is a queer beast in that it uses a single panel for both systems and intelligently switches behavior based on the frequency entered (ILS and VOR frequency ranges don't overlap). And so one must choose to use VOR or ILS but never at the same time.

 

ILS consists of localizer, glideslope, and marker signals. There is no "beacon" to point to. The entirety of the ILS indications show up on the ADI with the LOC and GS needles as well as the flashing marker light in the corner. The HSI is not involved.

[Maulkin]

ILS consists of localizer, glideslope, and marker signals. There is no "beacon" to point to. The entirety of the ILS indications show up on the ADI with the LOC and GS needles as well as the flashing marker light in the corner. The HSI is not involved.

 

I dont see any flashing light? Corner of what?

[Maulkin]

Every single NTTR TACAN is a VORTAC (VOR-TACAN) so you can test Mirage VOR on something like 23 different stations. On Caucasus there are other types of station.

 

Hexagon = VOR

Hexagon with box = VOR-DME

Hexagon with hollow ears = TACAN

Hexagon with filled ears = VORTAC

With VORTAC if you know the channel there is a table to look up the VOR frequency. All VORTACs have DME.

 

 

Can you give some examples? I am only seeing the 4 VOR (hexagon) beacons, but the only other symbols I am seeing on the map is the TACAN (which VOR/ILS will not work with..but that is why I have TACAN so that is covered separately), a rectangle symbol (for example the one near Krasnodar-Center 840.0MHz MB Chan 40) and the fuzzy symbols which I think are NDB's. I dont see any"hex with a box" or "hex with filled ears".

 

That being said the VOR/ILS on the Mirage is very limited when it comes to the range of frequency values so, for example, I cannot set it to the frequency of that rectangles or the fuzzy symbols I referred to because they are much too high.

[Frederf]

Page 63 of manual, ADI, item #4 "Marker light"

 

St. George VOR is a VOR-DME station. Note the hexagon enclosed within the square.

Nellis TACAN is a TACAN station only. Notice the symbol carefully that the 3 squares are hollow and not filled in black.

Boulder City VORTAC is both a VOR station and a TACAN together. Notice the symbol has black filled-in boxes.

 

For example McCarraan VORTAC operates TACAN services on 116X (1140 MHz, 1203 MHz) but also VOR services on 116.9 MHz. And sure enough if you tune the ILS-VOR panel to 116.9 the needle points to the station.

 

The VOR range is 108.0 to 118.95 Mhz. ILS localizers are 108.1 through 111.95 (odd 100 kHz values, 50 kHz increment). The rectangles are RSBN stations which are specialized (Soviet ~900 Mhz). The fuzzy stations are lower frequency NDBs being in the range 190-1750 kHz (0.19 to 1.750 MHz). Both of these systems are not Mirage-compatible.

 

One bug that this uncovers is that the DME component of TACAN should provide range to the St. George station when you set the set to 23X (and of course the instrument mode to TACAN).

Also it is also probably a bug that when in Cv mode (true compass) that the VOR needle is not being corrected to show the true bearing (both relative and absolute) to station.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Frederf

[Maulkin]

Ah ok I think I misunderstood you. I was looking for a light that remained lit when a valid ILS station was selected. The light you are referring to only lights up when you fly over an inner/outer marker (along with an 'M' on the HUD)