Il2 1946 and FSX killing LO/FC....

[Shaman]

I believe Gozr already locked up his mind, so this discussion is over.

 

Anyway by the way the thread was titled it just shows the nature of it. IBTL.

[theGozr]

what do you expect when someone write this no sens. Flight model in FS2004 and FSX is not even half as good as Lock On's

 

The most important thing is the flight model, the rest are cosmetics

 

You just showed that you are well are locked . isn't ?..

[GGTharos]

Actually the FM's are reasonable. They can and hopefully will be better - however ...

 

Ballistics will give a whole lot more feel to combat RIGHT NOW than putting AFM on all aircrafts (but AFM would help too, and I know exactly how)

 

Would turbulence enhance combat? NO! There's nothing that turbulence -can- do for combat right now.

 

We don't even have proper feedback of aircraft performance - I don't think -any- sim right now has this.

[theGozr]

We don't even have proper feedback of aircraft performance?

What do you mean ?

 

well try to make your combat OFFLINE at turbulences set to at list 3 at diff altitudes.

Then try the same online then tell me. settings of 1,2, 3 or 4 would be good at list..

 

Would turbulences/frictions enhance combat? Yes!!!! it add at list a LOTS INTO THE FLIGHT realism of the combat why is it so hard to Understand ? only someone who never fly say this kind of things.. so once again QUAKE fight or sim fight ?

 

I expect to have at list an ED Testers Team to be a pilot at list in RL. right ?

[Guest IguanaKing]

Turbulence would certainly make many people on-line re-think their tactics, that's for sure. The problem is that is doesn't currently exist for on-line play and many other things don't exist there either. It would add to the experience, no doubt, but there are other problems with on-line play that, IMHO, should have a higher priority. Besides, I don't think that our computers are capable of giving us the feeling of reduced Gs and feeling like we've been in a fist fight after flying through a particularly bad mountain wave. :smilewink:

[Ukr_Alex]

I just wonder how much different AFM would feel on a 29 27 or 15.

 

I mean those are very fast, on the rails jets. Su-25s and A-10s are a very different creature were you can feel a lot of the plane.

 

 

Now I dont see how some uber flight model for a Mig-29 would make it feel much different. Unless we are talking landings and near stall speeds, I personaly dont think they should feel much different at combat speeds then they already do. Or maybe Im wrong.

[GGTharos]

Turbulence does not make the difference between quake or flight sim, you know better. And no, I don't even really notice turbulence when fighting off line, I'm too focused on dodging missiles/guns/whatever. I will admit the constant shaking of the screen does get VERY ANNOYING and potentnially painful on my eyes, and I really do NOT need nor want that.

 

And yes, we don't have proper feedback for aircraft performance.

For example: In F-15 you get the shaking only when close to a stall.

But in reality you would get shaking as you increase AoA and sound rising in amplitude as you increase AoA, -well- before the stall. LO only models AoA 'feedback' of this sort when the AoA is very high, so you cannot easily judge how you are performing the plane between low AoA and 'almost stall' AoA.

[Guest IguanaKing]

You still get banged and slapped around pretty good in a fast jet. In fact, I think it hurts a little more, just shorter duration. ;)

[GGTharos]

I just wonder how much different AFM would feel on a 29 27 or 15.

 

I mean those are very fast, on the rails jets. Su-25s and A-10s are a very different creature were you can feel a lot of the plane.

 

 

Now I dont see how some uber flight model for a Mig-29 would make it feel much different. Unless we are talking landings and near stall speeds, I personaly dont think they should feel much different at combat speeds then they already do. Or maybe Im wrong.

 

 

Well, think about heavy combat loads. How many people do you see taking bombs on board and not caring about dropping them when they get into a fight, or about what it does to their fuel consumption and range and speed?

 

The reason why they don't care is because this effect does not really exist in LO. In RL you get punished a -LOT- for loading up like this.

 

You see this in the Su-25T ... because AFM accounts for all this.

 

AFM would bring a LOT of realism in cases like these.

[Ukr_Alex]

Now that you bring it up, the few onboard videos I have, like that Red Flag one they cockpits do shake quite a bit during high G manuvers, but how big an effect would that be over a computer screen.

 

I mean does the shaking really hinder the way the plane moves or its more of a stress on the pilot, like the Gs we cant feel?

[Ukr_Alex]

Well, think about heavy combat loads. How many people do you see taking bombs on board and not caring about dropping them when they get into a fight, or about what it does to their fuel consumption and range and speed?

 

The reason why they don't care is because this effect does not really exist in LO. In RL you get punished a -LOT- for loading up like this.

 

You see this in the Su-25T ... because AFM accounts for all this.

 

AFM would bring a LOT of realism in cases like these.

 

Well I didnt look at it that way.

 

I mean pure "feel" of flying an AFM Mig-29. How much different would it feel at combat speeds just moving the thing around.

[GGTharos]

I mean does the shaking really hinder the way the plane moves or its more of a stress on the pilot, like the Gs we cant feel?

 

 

 

No Alex, the difference is that you know: A little shaking, you're doing ok.

Your shaking gets rougher: You are losing speed

 

See what I mean? You know how well you are flying the plane by the AoA effect on it ... basically a feedback. This is a feedback we -can- have in LO, unlike for example, G's.

[GGTharos]

Well I didnt look at it that way.

 

I mean pure "feel" of flying an AFM Mig-29. How much different would it feel at combat speeds just moving the thing around.

 

I believe you would also see great difference in how it flies in turns and rolls - not in 'routine' flight so much as in actual combat.

[Ukr_Alex]

No Alex, the difference is that you know: A little shaking, you're doing ok.

Your shaking gets rougher: You are losing speed

 

See what I mean? You know how well you are flying the plane by the AoA effect on it ... basically a feedback. This is a feedback we -can- have in LO, unlike for example, G's.

 

Roger, makes a lot more sense now.

 

 

Now I really want an AFM fighter :P

[Guest IguanaKing]

Its more stress on the pilot than anything else. Sure it affects your flight path, but actually not quite as much as what is portrayed in LOMAC. Not in normal flight anyway. Landing or takeoff, OTOH, that's a little different. It is really something that is felt more than anything. The "fist fight" thing is definitely no figure of speech, sometimes it literally feels like someone has beaten the s**t out of you some time after landing. Every muscle in your body is sore. All it really does in a sim is give us the annoying screen shaking GG referred to which simply forces us to a different altitude. The full experience cannot even be realized in a sim...except maybe if you've got money to burn and book some time with FlightSafety. :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

Well, think about heavy combat loads. How many people do you see taking bombs on board and not caring about dropping them when they get into a fight, or about what it does to their fuel consumption and range and speed?

 

The reason why they don't care is because this effect does not really exist in LO. In RL you get punished a -LOT- for loading up like this.

 

You see this in the Su-25T ... because AFM accounts for all this.

 

AFM would bring a LOT of realism in cases like these.

 

Speaking of which. Are we going to be affected by DA in Black Shark?

[GGTharos]

What's DA? :)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Density Altitude. Helicopters are very sensitive to that, especially when you're going to be hanging ordnance on them. DA will often limit how much you can carry.

[GGTharos]

Aha! Yep. Though the Ka-50, due to the nature of its rotor arrangement, fares better than main-rotor-tail-rotor configurations.

 

Even the SFM aircraft are affected by this though in a different way ;)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Heh...we've even got a couple of 206LRs that have modified tail rotors to compensate for low DA. Anti-torque is also affected around here, especially on a hot day. :D The coaxial mains on that Ka-50 reduce all kinds of traditional helicopter problems I imagine. :)

[Vati]

Anyone questioning either to update flight model or not, simply shows how little he knows about flying.

It's like the fsim poll I saw not long ago which asked: "what's the most enjoying for you as a pilot: a) take-off, b) landing, c) taxiing, d) crashlanding"

The most important is left out: flying. It really shows why we are where we are... thankfully some of us care and try to change this...

[Guest IguanaKing]

I don't think many people are saying it shouldn't be improved for all aircraft. It should be. But, most are just saying that other things which are broken ATM in the on-line world need to have a higher priority than turbulence. :smilewink:

[theGozr]

Now lets me tell you and i would like to know what you think of this, i flew in Yaks, Mig15,17, Soko and some other experimentals.. I'm not quite a noob regarding simulators, I know also others pilots flying the sims witch are good and doing acrobatics flights etc.. so you want to tell me what is important on a flight and priorities to us?

You flight simulator pilots ? Think about it deeply.. take a moment and really think about what you say.. They are pilots that test flight sim that have no idea how a sim work and other sthat are good at it.. instead to say some dunkyness just listen , learn from them and try to do what they ask because THEY know , We know.. you don't.. The flight Quake Game will be much closer to a simulator if more time would be spent in the real flying experiences mixed with combat and all the goodies..

Because many of you are totally ignorant of what is flying that ED do not spend time on it and make you believe that is not important, well they are wrong " BESURE" This is sad because the community is great and the community want to have the closest thing to reality.. They are not stupid they want to know they know a lots about history etc..

You decide if you want something closer to a simulator or you want to shoot tanks with your helicopter and bouncing bullets and forget about flying jet fighters. ( even if the helico and bouncing bullet is cool IMO too )

 

PS: Turbulences is a simple word that regroup many ideas of flights effects. so don't be an Arse.

[GGTharos]

If you want to specify which effects you're talking about, then by all means, be specific.

'Simulate turbulence' is meaningless precicely because of what you just said. As far as I'm concerned turbulence is one thing and one thing -only- and it is COMMONLY understood to mean effects on aircraft due to weather.

 

So I suggest, mr. great pilot, you start being more specific instead of lording your pilotness.

 

Opinion of real pilots are always welcome - WHEN THEY CAN BE UNDERSTOOD.

 

If you really want to help, BE HELPFUL instead of making demands that mean little to anyone.

 

If it is a language/translation attitude you have, then by all means say so and we will work that out.

 

But you have NOT ONCE attempted to explain anything insofar as I can recall, other than to say that you know better because you're a pilot. NOT HELPFUL.

[RvETito]

Indeed! Just showing muscles isn't quiet popular here.