A/G HUD Symbology - Miles to Waypoint missing

[Merlins51]

In A/G mode, the 'Miles to Waypoint' and 'way point / mark number' symbology is currently removed unless a target is designated.

 

I believe this may be an omission. But I'm not sure, so some 'logic' to back up my thinking:

1) It doesn't seem to make sense. After I've fenced in and switched to A/G mode I often have to toggle back to NAV to see how far from the target waypoint I am.

2) The NATOPS manual mentions a few things that are removed in A/G mode including airspeed boxes, heading tape etc. but doesn't say that way point data is removed

3) The GR.9 has that data in its A/G mode (albeit a different aircraft). As seen on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8bmk4yZAJI&t=360s

See the attack runs starting at 6:00. The symbology shows miles to waypoint in A/G mode until he designates the target at which point it switches to miles to TGT.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Merlins51

[Zeus67]

In A/G mode, the 'Miles to Waypoint' and 'way point / mark number' symbology is currently removed unless a target is designated.

 

I believe this may be an omission. But I'm not sure, so some 'logic' to back up my thinking:

1) It doesn't seem to make sense. After I've fenced in and switched to A/G mode I often have to toggle back to NAV to see how far from the target waypoint I am.

2) The NATOPS manual mentions a few things that are removed in A/G mode including airspeed boxes, heading tape etc. but doesn't say that way point data is removed

3) The GR.9 has that data in its A/G mode (albeit a different aircraft). As seen on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8bmk4yZAJI&t=360s

See the attack runs starting at 6:00. The symbology shows miles to waypoint in A/G mode until he designates the target at which point it switches to miles to TGT.

 

The missing information is not shown in the HUD samples that are in the available documentation. Mainly the 2002 TACMAN.

 

In the video, the HUD is not in attack mode. You can designate AG targets in any mode, but only targeting data will be available when in attack mode.

 

Anyway, the HUD is due for an upgrade so we will review your complaint.

[Thomasew]

Hi Zeus,

 

 

Speaking of an upgrade to the HUD, .. one thing I've noticed, .. is that when the HUD is in VSTOL mode .. there is no negative sign for FPM, when descending, .. whereas, in NAV mode .. the negative sign is shown.

 

 

Not sure if this is true to the actual aircraft, .. which kinda seems illogical, .. but, it sure would come in handy in the sim .. especially when hovering, .. or trying to .. :)

 

 

Thanks for a great module .. :)

 

 

Cheers

Tom

[Merlins51]

Hey Zeus, thanks for the documentation source. I called up NWP 3-22.5-AV8B, Vol. I and it looks like you're absolutely right that no waypoint/markpoint cues are shown in A/G mode without having a designated target (which you can designate in any mode).

 

In the video, I'm pretty sure he is in A/G mode at the 6:04 mark because he has the CCIP pipper shown. However, he probably designated the waypoint as a target (as per the quote from the TACMAN below) which is why the WP and distance information is shown. A couple of seconds later (and also in other attack runs later in the video), he designates the TGT directly with other modes and then also designates them as a waypoint offset (W/OS symbology).

 

2.4.1 Waypoint and Offset Designation on

EHSI/EHSD Display. If the coordinates of the

target are known, the pilot can enter them as a

waypoint or an offset to a waypoint. He can

designate this point by calling up the particular

waypoint on the EHSI/EHSD or DMT display,

selecting waypoint steering, and pressing the

DESG pushbutton.

 

The designated waypoint or waypoint offset

appears on the HUD as the TD diamond symbol.

The steering arrow is also displayed if relative

bearing exceeds 15°. The WYPT and WO/S

legends are used, rather than TGT, to clearly

indicate to the pilot what he may be bombing.

 

When A/G master mode is selected, the designation

is automatically transferred. Time-to-go

to weapon release is also displayed below the

WYPT number and range legend in the AUTO

mode, for the delivery mode and weapon

selected.

 

Figure 2-39 in the TACMAN shows what that looks like.

[Fri13]

In A/G mode, the 'Miles to Waypoint' and 'way point / mark number' symbology is currently removed unless a target is designated.

 

I believe this may be an omission. But I'm not sure, so some 'logic' to back up my thinking:

1) It doesn't seem to make sense. After I've fenced in and switched to A/G mode I often have to toggle back to NAV to see how far from the target waypoint I am.

 

Why you are in a A/G mode before you are in a target?

I think that when you are approaching the target area, you need to already be in a visual range for at least ARBS/DMT so you have a good situational awareness for operating in that area.

And once you are in A/G mode, you are not anymore doing navigation as the HUD and MFCD is guiding you to engagements, you have the compass and other data like ranges to target and so on.

 

And wait that the map comes so you can have your moving map on one side while you are performing combat too! At that moment you see your waypoints and so on visually and keep HUD clear for the more important stuff like combat.

 

2) The NATOPS manual mentions a few things that are removed in A/G mode including airspeed boxes, heading tape etc. but doesn't say that way point data is removed

 

Probably because it shouldn't be there? As right now the NAV mode will tell you the range and heading tape has the line for the direction and the HUD as well has the heading course at bottom. And then the NAV MFCD view (don't remember the name, the big compass) has as well the ETA for waypoint at current speed. In navigation you have time to look around and as well the map and other navigation data in either HDD.

 

3) The GR.9 has that data in its A/G mode (albeit a different aircraft). As seen on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8bmk4yZAJI&t=360s

See the attack runs starting at 6:00. The symbology shows miles to waypoint in A/G mode until he designates the target at which point it switches to miles to TGT.

 

Does the Harrier do same as Su-25T (what it should be able to do) that you have automatic flying through the flight so pilot doesn't need to do anything else than observe the surroundings and operation, so the aircraft flies from waypoint to another and when it arrives to waypoint that is start for attack run, the Su-25T enables Shkval, locks on the given coordinates and flies there, drop the bombs in given series (attack runs) and resumes to next waypoint after ordinance has been dropped, and pilot doesn't need to do anything if not needed?

 

As that is something I would like to see (implemented to Su-25T as well as it is lacking it) in Harrier, as it is fairly logical thing really... :-)

Already love the ABRS system to resume general direction of the target once you turn back to direction after gimbal limits were achieved. Really fast and easy to do attacks.

 

Meaning Harrier would automatically turn DMT/ARBS ON when in attack waypoint, lock on the programmed coordinates and then guide pilot in? (AFAIK current beta doesn't have any kind autopilot in Harrier with route following, or does it even have one that I don't even know?)

 

There is many things missing, like the V carrots in HUD that flicker around revealing the thermal hot spots FLIR is detecting, so pilot can visually see if there is something critical (hot vehicles, people, buildings, or false alarms like sun/sky reflections from water etc).

 

 

It is just interesting what different companies/countries engineers has come up with, yet how many data is not in the official pilots handbooks or even in technical books but only "need to know" basis too.

[Merlins51]

Thanks Fri13. Agree that it's very interesting how aircraft designers choose what and how to show information.

 

I think I was probably just missing a step in the fence in procedure. In the A-10 (and other aircraft), if I want to visually search for and attack targets of opportunity with bombs (CCIP), rockets or gun mode at a particular waypoint, I just select those weapons and carry on navigating to the waypoint per usual. If the IP is far enough away from the target waypoint, I may still need directions/distance. Especially if I'm low level and turning through valleys etc.

 

However, it looks like in the AV8B, if I want to do the same, the pilot has to manually designate the waypoint as a target to have the distance to WPT show up in A/G mode. Once closer I can then designate a specific target using one of my sensors if I want.

 

Looks like Zeus and crew have coded it properly, I just have to learn how to use the systems!

[Zeus67]

Thanks Fri13. Agree that it's very interesting how aircraft designers choose what and how to show information.

 

I think I was probably just missing a step in the fence in procedure. In the A-10 (and other aircraft), if I want to visually search for and attack targets of opportunity with bombs (CCIP), rockets or gun mode at a particular waypoint, I just select those weapons and carry on navigating to the waypoint per usual. If the IP is far enough away from the target waypoint, I may still need directions/distance. Especially if I'm low level and turning through valleys etc.

 

However, it looks like in the AV8B, if I want to do the same, the pilot has to manually designate the waypoint as a target to have the distance to WPT show up in A/G mode. Once closer I can then designate a specific target using one of my sensors if I want.

 

Looks like Zeus and crew have coded it properly, I just have to learn how to use the systems!

 

There is also the TOT function in the UFC, which is inop at this time. With this function you set the position that you have just overflown as a target spot so you can return and attack it.

[Merlins51]

Zeus, are we missing an option in the EHSI at the moment? The mode I spoke about above, whereby you designate the waypoint as the target, is accomplished by pressing the DESG button in the EHSI. See below for diagram 2-36 from the the TACMAN. We currently have an empty space where DESG should be.

[ChickenSim]

Speaking of an upgrade to the HUD, .. one thing I've noticed, .. is that when the HUD is in VSTOL mode .. there is no negative sign for FPM, when descending, .. whereas, in NAV mode .. the negative sign is shown.

 

Not sure if this is true to the actual aircraft, .. which kinda seems illogical, .. but, it sure would come in handy in the sim .. especially when hovering, .. or trying to .. :)

 

This is how the aircraft actually works. It doesn't show the negative sign while the V/STOL analog scales for AoA and VVI are present.

 

The VVI analog scale is graduated in 500' increments, and the Vertical Flight Path symbol that replaces the velocity vector shows you your FPM below 60 knots (100 FPM per 1° above or below the horizon).

Edited December 8, 2017 by ChickenSim

[Zeus67]

Zeus, are we missing an option in the EHSI at the moment? The mode I spoke about above, whereby you designate the waypoint as the target, is accomplished by pressing the DESG button in the EHSI. See below for diagram 2-36 from the the TACMAN. We currently have an empty space where DESG should be.

 

INS waypoint designation as target is not available yet.