Eagle Vs Flanker

[Mizzy]

Flanker all the way for me.

 

Mizzy

[D-Scythe]

'Personally?' As in you've flown one?

 

"Personally" as in I fly the F-15 99% of the time, and that it's my "personal" opinion. I can't speak for the other fighters, because I neither have any credible experience or knowledge about them.

 

Sorry, that came out wrong before. I'm no F-15 pilot, although I wish I could be.

 

My point is that phraseology ought to be accurate as much as possible. We have real pilots telling us that the F-15 is underpowered; 'Personally' should be something that ought to be said if it is indeed your personal experience.

 

Give less ammo, get shot at less.

 

I don't get it: I never claimed to be a pilot or have any significant piloting skills...well, ever, as far as I remember. I thought I made it clear that by personally, I mean that "personally I feel that the F-15 is underpowered, especially at altitude."

 

Which translates to: I have no solid numbers, but it is my personal opinion that the F-15 is underpowered based on what I've read.

[GGTharos]

I know what you mean, I'm just saying - be careful how you say it. We're in an unfortunate era of nitpicking.

[Pilotasso]

Add in the fact that the F-15 cannot open fire above 10 miles thanx to the excessive strenght of ECM otherwise it risks the penalty of a possible TK. In any russian plane you can see whos behind the strobe with the datalink. SO when everybody jamms migґs radar disavantage is almost nill, the 29 has often the advantage of first shoot--WTF--with R-77 (best missile in this game IMHO) that was never quite put into service with the mig-29S in any russian airframe untill the Su-27SM came along. I think ECM strength should be put back to what is was before FC and skip sensor advanced modeling as the only way to go arround this, or else we're doomed to have a permantly castrated F-15 in LOMAC. In certain missions you cant fly F-15 at all.

[Cosmonaut]

What's the burn time of the 77 and the 120 in real life?

[Pilotasso]

77 I dont know exactly, except from 1 or 2 old test videos I have it shows to have about 5-6 seconds of burn. AIM-120B Apears to burn for 6-7 seconds. But the R-77 has a wider motor giving it more thrust per second. On the other hand it has a higher drag index. Im guessing each missile wins the range crown depending of the scenario. Another aspect is what scenario you want to give the 77 the best chance to track, and not exactly give it the best range. The 120 is probably a smarter missile wich doesnt need as much care to maintain lock both from the launcher aircrafts radar and its own seeker like the 77. You can probably afford to fire one 120 from high altitude looking down to maximize its range but a Mig might be wary of doing the same.

[D-Scythe]

77 I dont know exactly, except from 1 or 2 old test videos I have it shows to have about 5-6 seconds of burn. AIM-120B Apears to burn for 6-7 seconds. But the R-77 has a wider motor giving it more thrust per second. On the other hand it has a higher drag index. Im guessing each missile wins the range crown depending of the scenario. Another aspect is what scenario you want to give the 77 the best chance to track, and not exactly give it the best range. The 120 is probably a smarter missile wich doesnt need as much care to maintain lock both from the launcher and its own seeker like the 77. You can probably afford to fire one 120 from high altitude looking down to maximize its range but a Mig might be wary of doing the same.

 

 

The R-77 doesn't loft - it might compete with the AIM-120A in range, but not the AIM-120B/C.

 

In any case, there is no way the R-77 can compete with the AIM-120C, because it represents AIM-120A technology which is in some cases is several generations behind (like software).

[S77th-GOYA]

Add in the fact that the F-15 cannot open fire above 10 miles thanx to the excessive strenght of ECM otherwise it risks the penalty of a possible TK.

 

You seriously believe that? 10 miles? And you think ECM is modeled excessively? The majority of times, jammers drop their jam and identify themselves at some point, in my experience.

 

The mismodeling of no IFF for jamming returns in the eagle is definitely something that should be addressed, however.

[Cosmonaut]

77 I dont know exactly, except from 1 or 2 old test videos I have it shows to have about 5-6 seconds of burn. AIM-120B Apears to burn for 6-7 seconds. But the R-77 has a wider motor giving it more thrust per second. On the other hand it has a higher drag index. Im guessing each missile wins the range crown depending of the scenario. Another aspect is what scenario you want to give the 77 the best chance to track, and not exactly give it the best range. The 120 is probably a smarter missile wich doesnt need as much care to maintain lock both from the launcher aircrafts radar and its own seeker like the 77. You can probably afford to fire one 120 from high altitude looking down to maximize its range but a Mig might be wary of doing the same.

 

Second question :)

 

Which missile's control surfaces produces more drag in general and when maneuvering the missile while en route to the target. The 120 uses 8 fins but the 77 has 4 of those lattice shaped fins.

[Pilotasso]

You seriously believe that? 10 miles? And you think ECM is modeled excessively? The majority of times, jammers drop their jam and identify themselves at some point, in my experience.

 

They will? What forces them to?

In my experience in an ECM forest, you wont see anyone dropping their jam.

And the lates fashion makes radar pretty useless, But In not going to disscuss that AGAIN. Sufice to say thet Ive been relegated EOS in visual range 90% of the time because I just dont get any fun from maddoggin 120's when I cant use the radar.

[GGTharos]

The AIM-120 only uses the tail fins to maneuver. The R-77 has a wider body instead.

 

The AIM-120's rocket burns for 11s, R-77 for 6 - these are approximate values, down to the second.

 

Another thing that gives the MiG advantage is 'dot hunting'. If you're high, jamming doesn't matter - once you see the dot appear you lob a 77 that way, maddog. The MiG on the other hand is harder to spot - and while that's realistic, the discepancy isn't.

 

Also missile maddogging needs to go away for the most part, and that will happen when the search algo becomes 'smarter'. Right now it scans its entire gimbals.

[D-Scythe]

Second question :)

 

Which missile's control surfaces produces more drag in general and when maneuvering the missile while en route to the target. The 120 uses 8 fins but the 77 has 4 of those lattice shaped fins.

 

No, the R-77 also has 8 "fins", with the 4 in the back doing the steering, just like the AIM-120.

[Pilotasso]

The AIM-120 only uses the tail fins to maneuver. The R-77 has a wider body instead.

 

The AIM-120's rocket burns for 11s, R-77 for 6 - these are approximate values, down to the second.

 

Another thing that gives the MiG advantage is 'dot hunting'. If you're high, jamming doesn't matter - once you see the dot appear you lob a 77 that way, maddog. The MiG on the other hand is harder to spot - and while that's realistic, the discepancy isn't.

 

Also missile maddogging needs to go away for the most part, and that will happen when the search algo becomes 'smarter'. Right now it scans its entire gimbals.

 

Your 120 value goes against everything I ever saw, where did you get this from?

Your talking about the D?

[D-Scythe]

Your 120 value goes against everything I ever saw, where did you get this from?

Your talking about the D?

 

The AMRAAM went through a couple motors since starting out with the WPU-6 in the AIM-120A. It was upgraded to the WPU-16 (+5 in) version in the AIM-120C (need to confirm).

 

I have no idea what the rocket motor in the AIM-120D is going to be.

[GGTharos]

I can't remember my source Pilotasso, I'll have to look for it again.