Flight model not great...

[myHelljumper]

But in the end, if the majority of you are happy to not have the auto-trim like we had on the previous version, fine...

 

The M200C NEVER had auto trim....

 

The stick commanded pitch rate below 300kts and G load above 300kts.

 

Please, get your facts strait before trying to correct the FM.

[Mav783]

I can understand this is confusing to learn a new way to fly on the same plane.

 

But again, on landing once you're trimmed for 14 degrees AoA, landing is a piece of cake.

You can even use AP ON to do that, adjust flight path with trim command, and disconnect for flare.

 

I feel the same.

Personally, iam happy that the new FM is like this now. It was really to easy to make a perfect land before, what ever the wind. Mirage was like a train. Now, it stay like a train, easy to fly and land, but not crazy easy as before. I feel it's better now, and maybe more realistic probably. FBW is not a tool of God and do not make the wind, turbulences, and lack of precision and optimal speed disappear.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Mav783

[*Aquila*]

in this 3 configurations i find the previous flight model way much better (since there was no need to trim). It was reacting like a modern fly-by-wire.

Im surprise that people are not talking about this fact.

1) It was not "better", it was easier.

2) What's, in your opinion, a "modern" FBW, as opposed to a non-modern one?

3) How does it fly?

 

IMHO, you're not arguing about FBW but about an auto-trim that, on this plane IRL, does not work the way you think it may.

 

PS: no one here has uploaded his curriculum vitae for everybody to share, so the question of skills and experience is a distorted axis for any debate. By the way, some factual and documented arguments were communicated from the first page of this topic. Opinions and feeling are one thing. Facts are another one. Whatever the number of pages the debate blackens with acid ink.

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

I haven't tried the air refueling yet with the new flight model. But i did land, take-off and dive for bombing, and in this 3 configurations i find the previous flight model way much better (since there was no need to trim). It was reacting like a modern fly-by-wire.

Im surprise that people are not talking about this fact.

 

I don't know why are you complaining about something that is known to be THE REAL BEHAVIOUR OF THE PLANE!!!!:huh:...dude, it doesn't matter if you "liked" it when you didn't have to trim the plane because that WASNT CORRECT...the m2000 needs to be trimmed!!!!!!, thats all buddy, just deal with it and get used to it...I bet once you get used you will love it :thumbup:

[=Pedro=]

I knew there will be lots of complaints when Razbam changed the FBW nature to real one. Once you map AP Standby mode to your hotas you will get the best of the Mirage in terms of reality (this is what DCS is all about) ;)

Edited February 5, 2018 by =Pedro=

[Nefron]

What's the difference between AP standby and AP disconnect?

[myHelljumper]

AP disconnect turns the Autopilot off.

 

AP standby allow you to maneuver the plane with your stick while pressed and once released will reengage the autopilot in the mods you were previously.

[jojo]

Hummm, about Boeing how would you explain the B777 ramp strike that happened in USA ? (undetected too low power setting). Not that simple...

[jojo]

I like this one :D

 

Bottom line, when a Boeing crashes it's never the plane's fault, when an Airbus crashes, it's always Airbus' design fault. :lol:

[Mav783]

I'm not at all a specialist about aviation, i'm not a pilot, i'm not an enginer.

But i see, feel and love much more the way that the Mirage evolve now. Now, my soon, 9 years old, can not land it as before like in Train Simulator with a full crosswing ! :joystick::D (i made it fun but it happened..). And i like to believe it's more coherent with reality :megalol:

[jojo]

I'm not at all a specialist about aviation, i'm not a pilot, i'm not an enginer.

But i see, feel and love much more the way that the Mirage evolve now. Now, my soon, 9 years old, can not land it as before like in Train Simulator with a full crosswing ! :joystick::D (i made it fun but it happened..). And i like to believe it's more coherent with reality :megalol:

 

Worst dad ever :megalol:

[Mav783]

That's true !

 

I need to say, when a child can land a Mirage with a advanced flight model. Even if you know that you don't know anything about the Mirage comportment IRL, something like that come to your mind : "do this FM is really realistic ?" :lol:

 

Now, he fail ! And iam happy :D

But we can not say, even now, that the Mirage is hard to pilot...we can still feel the FBW is really good. After, it's also well known that the Mirage is "easy" to pilot IRL, if i can say what pilots in flightschool say everywhere (but to the point that a child can land ?! The f*** no ! :P)

Edited February 5, 2018 by Mav783

[jojo]

That's true !

 

I need to say, when a child can land a Mirage with a advanced flight model. Even if you know that you don't know anything about the Mirage comportment IRL, something like that come to your mind : "do this FM is really realistic ?" :lol:

 

Now, he fail ! And iam happy :D

But we can not say, even now, that the Mirage is hard to pilot...we can still feel the FBW is really good. After, it's also well known that the Mirage is "easy" to pilot IRL, if i can say what pilots in flightschool say everywhere (but to the point that a child can land ?! The f*** no ! :P)

 

Yes, that's what we can read most of the time, the main trap being "energy management".

 

At least, to give your son a chance, did you teach your son how to use AP to trim the plane ? :joystick:

[Azrayen]

For those not happy of "missing" the auto-trim:

 

Basically, what on M-2000C is the AP (basic mode), is on an Airbus the "Normal law".

 

Of course, many specifics do differ (one of the main being the need to "pause" the AP on the M-2000C to use the stick), protections aren't the same (not the topic here) but on the grand scheme that's how it compares.

 

This also explains why (real) M-2000 pilots use this much the AP ;)

 

++

Az'

[Mav783]

Yes, that's what we can read most of the time, the main trap being "energy management".

 

At least, to give your son a chance, did you teach your son how to use AP to trim the plane ? :joystick:

 

I don't know about energy, some ppl said it's to much powerfull now. I don't know.

But with the upgrade, it becomed more interesting to land and fly with hard wind and turbulences.

 

And yes, for sure about the AP, with the smokewinder, the flares and the eject seat, (and the external view to fly :( haha ) it's what he know how to use :D And also, he start to undertsand the effect of altitude on the plane. After, he gets bored fast, at this age that is normal. The trim itself (out of AP) stay complicated to use for a child that pass lot of time to change the direction, the altitude and the speed. It's pretty impossible for him to follow anything. Beeing more serious, he did succes to land 2 times, by luck (really), only when the plane is already in final approach. Now, the luck don't look enought.

 

It's a personal experience that does not reflect what is factual about the new FM. But i saw that pretty fun to share the idea that the mirage was maybe to easy to pilot, and now, it look more realistic. Even if in deep, i don't have the knowedge. But by induction, i think the better FWB system can not make a plane land with a crosswind without any stress...

After, the Mirage is known (what I heard) to be easy to fly, from real pilot, i think they almost all said it's easy and in the same time verry responsive.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Mav783

[blast]

This also explains why (real) M-2000 pilots use this much the AP ;)

 

It seems im the only one to miss the "auto-trim" in the previous version so i guess this is for me. :music_whistling:

Just a question, how do you know that m2000 pilots use the AP that much?

[blast]

The M200C NEVER had auto trim....

 

The stick commanded pitch rate below 300kts and G load above 300kts.

 

Please, get your facts strait before trying to correct the FM.

 

From your sentence "The stick commanded pitch rate below 300kts and G load above 300kts" you can conclude that the flight model is not auto-trim? Please details more because this proof nothing.

 

With my logic: Does the previous version was not better to land and take off, or to maintain pitch when diving? -> yes it was. And why was it better to maintain the pitch? -> because it was auto trimmed... This is a fact.

 

By the way, where is your fact that the m2000 flight model is not auto trimmed in real? The document you provided doesnt even explains the flight model in details.

Edited February 6, 2018 by blast

[cocomotive]

It seems im the only one to miss the "auto-trim" in the previous version so i guess this is for me. :music_whistling:

Just a question, how do you know that m2000 pilots use the AP that much?

 

May be it was his job? Who knows;)

[myHelljumper]

From your sentence "The stick commanded pitch rate below 300kts and G load above 300kts" you can conclude that the flight model is not auto-trim? Please details more because this proof nothing.

 

Pitch rate means that the stick command a specific pitch rate.

 

0 stick input = 0 pitch rate

positive stick input = positive pitch rate

negative stick input = negative pitch rate.

 

There is no trim in the above, the FBW keeps the aircraft at the commanded pitch rate.

 

If the aircraft was auto-trim, the nose would't have been climbing with the aircraft at a positive attitude when above 300kts, that's the point of auto-trim.

 

I think you are mistaking auto-trim with FBW control laws.

[jojo]

Pitch rate means that the stick command a specific pitch rate.

 

0 stick input = 0 pitch rate

positive stick input = positive pitch rate

negative stick input = negative pitch rate.

 

There is no trim in the above, the FBW keeps the aircraft at the commanded pitch rate.

 

If the aircraft was auto-trim, the nose would't have been climbing with the aircraft at a positive attitude when above 300kts, that's the point of auto-trim.

 

I think you are mistaking auto-trim with FBW control laws.

 

I think there is a confusion here.

 

Yes, several weeks (months) ago, the M-2000C had auto trim.

 

Now it's corrected to be closer to the real thing.

[jojo]

It seems im the only one to miss the "auto-trim" in the previous version so i guess this is for me. :music_whistling:

Just a question, how do you know that m2000 pilots use the AP that much?

 

We had this talk several times since the FM has been updated. And it was prior to DCS 2.5.

 

Some reading about Mirage FBW and handling (even if not directly related to the trim issue):

Test pilot:

http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS1984/ICAS-84-4.5.1.pdf

 

British pilot in exchange tour:

https://hushkit.net/2016/10/13/mirage-2000-pilot-interview-cutting-it-in-the-electric-cakeslice/

[blast]

We had this talk several times since the FM has been updated. And it was prior to DCS 2.5.

 

I missed the battle then coz i didn't see those previous post :doh:

Anyway, Im already resignate to use the AP more often, and in few hours i will get used to it.

 

Ty everyone for your lights.

Edited February 6, 2018 by blast

[jojo]

I realize my post was a little short :D

 

I meant: No, you were not the only one to be disappointed/ surprises by the auto-trim suppression. A lot of people reacted like you actually, and we had to explain it several times.

 

I don't remember when, but it was more than one month ago.

And it's true there is a lot of traffic on the forum, so it may have gone down the list and it's hard to find if you don't know what you're looking for.

 

But now people are used to it, and almost everyone can tell you it's OK and it's how it should be.:thumbup:

[Martini]

I was waiting for that answer! How do you know the real mirage fly this way?

 

They know from the manual, talking to pilots/maintainers, video footage, the design of the cockpit, etc... just like every other system in the aircraft. I understand you're frustrated since it's not as 'easy' as the constantly self-trimming fly-by-wire that was temporarily used in early access, but it literally takes 1 second to go ap on/ap standby and get the correct trim, or you know, use the trim hat for its intended purposes. DCS aims to model aircraft as accurately as possible, if you don't like that and would like something easier, there is always ACE Combat and War Thunder, but coming on here and whining about them making the plane more like its real life counterpart isn't going to get you very far with anyone and they certainly won't change it back. Also, it would be highly unlikely that they'd go out of their way to all the work necessary to change a system to make it 'less realistic' so chances are, if they make a change like this one, it was after they got new information or had more time to increase the accuracy of the simulation (some systems in early access only receive partial functionality or are over simplified due to lack of information...see IFF & ECM).

[Martini]

You can see him trimming it quite frequently.