TrackIR or VR?

[Jacks]

VR is amazing and once you have tasted it's nectar there is no going back but you find it frustrating as DCS is very poorly optimised for DCS and vr performance is very poor. Plus no comms from the devs as the plans for vr in DCS and future optimizations makes being a vr DCS simmer incredibly frustrating and concerning that we have spent alot of money upgrading our rigs to play a game that may never be truly playable in VR.

[oldmanflan]

I've been using Track IR (paired with a very nice 27" monitor and 1080ti graphics card) for about 5 months now. 2 days ago I decided to give VR a shot with the Oculus Rift. I'll share my thoughts below...

 

I'll start by saying that the very first time you start the game up with the Rift and find yourself truly sitting in the cockpit (F-18, in my case), you can't help but simply say "WOW!!" out loud. I've never experienced VR before and it was even cooler than I imagined. I just sat there checking out all the gauges, dials, buttons etc in amazement as my jet started up. Once up in the air I was able to get the full sense of how it looks to take a hard turn, push into a vertical climb, or barrel roll right over a mountain top. All of those things were truly out of this world in VR and something I recommend anyone who plays DCS experience at least once, even if it's on someone else's setup. Words can't really describe it.

 

Another few things I noticed right away... flying smoothly in formation is much easier in VR. With the Rift I'm able to get much closer to other jets and remain in formation and make necessary small adjustments smoothly much easier than with Track IR. Also, carrier landing in VR is MUCH easier. With the monitor and Track IR, I can successfully hit the deck at the right spot/air speed maybe 3/5 times in a row. With VR I nailed the landing with ease 5/5 times. Something about the immersion of VR makes the overall flying experience feel much easier and natural.

 

Also... night flying. With my monitor and Track IR, night flying is next to impossible and not enjoyable. I avoid it at all costs. However, taking a flight at dusk in VR, especially in the Persian Gulf map is absolutely amazing. I just kept finding myself enjoying watching the sun duck behind the skyline as it went from low light to no light. Then, once the sun is down, in VR everything around you is much easier to see and the night landscape just looks great as you fly over. With track IR, everything beyond my gauges just look like a black screen.

 

But, with all that said, I still plan on returning the Oculus Rift later today or tomorrow. While the immersion of VR is absolutely nuts, it still has a ton of drawbacks which make it extremely difficult to justify the $400 cost.

 

For starters, trying to hit buttons and toggle switches on the fly is extremely clunky in VR. So much so that I often found myself peaking under the headset to quickly press a keyboard key to take care of it, rather than trying to fumble around with moving the mouse to the switch or button then left or right clicking it. You can only bind so many buttons/toggles to your HOTAS. And if you are like me and rely heavily on the in game chat, forget about it. I know Discord or the in game radio is ideal but hardly anyone uses it in the servers I use, so that's not really an option. I suppose if I was more efficient with the keyboard and could navigate my keyboard blindfolded (good comparison, in this case), it wouldn't be an issue. But that's definitely not me. And even then, in VR I found reading the text in the top left corner to be quite difficult, even with 20/15 vision.

 

Also, the graphics downgrade to the Rift from a high end graphics card is night and day and too much to overcome, in my opinion. There is a massive drop in screen resolution and everything in VR looks notably pixelated. Someone said it best earlier in this thread when they compared the Rift to looking at everything through a thick screen. That's spot on. I find it extremely difficult to make out planes, boats, or even air fields if they aren't within like 5nm. It may be more realistic this way, but it dramatically decreases the experience of the game, if you ask me. Going back to Track IR with a high end graphics card on max settings was a huge relief, visually.

 

So, in it's current form, I don't think VR (at least with the Oculus Rift) is worth the price of admission for DCS. If, at some point, Oculus or another brand release a solid 1080p or 4K option, I'll probably get it again and be very happy with it. But until then, I'll happily stick with Track IR.

Edited November 13, 2018 by oldmanflan

[dcs76]

I started playing DCS and bought Oculus Rift and TrackIR with a 4K 27" monitor at the same time and tried both. Granted you can spot enemies better with the 4K monitor, but it needs some getting used to with the head movement while keeping your eyes on the screen.

 

In VR it feels totally realistic. Ok, the resolution is pretty low, but the immersion is by far the best. I really feel like I am sitting in the planes. Head movements translate perfectly. The sound also adapts to how your had is turned. The downside of immersion is that you will experience some sickness in the first 2 weeks, especially when taxiing. After that time (gradually increasing your play time each day), you won't have any problems. Higher immersion will also make you sweat when engaging in tough fights. Your pulse rate will go way up.

 

As I started with DCS and had to learn the A-10C (bought that module for 10 bucks), I had difficulties acquiring my targets in VR. Sometimes at night, it is still difficult. My usual trick is to either enable labels, get the general area of the enemies and then disable lables again. Alternatively I order my WM to engage targets and slew my cursor to his SPI before I let him rejoin. JTAC is also nice to have. NVG in VR is awesome too.

 

One downside to VR is, you need a high end computer. The performance with DCS is not that great, despite my VR having fewer pixels than my 4K monitor, it still has lower FPS. So after I decided I will fly in VR most of the time, I upgraded my graphics card to a 1080T so that I can fly with steady 45 fps.

 

Nowadays I fly about 3 to 4 hours per day with VR. Sometimes even 12 hours at weekends. My TrackIR is in a closet and I haven't used it in the last 4 months.

 

I am looking forward to DCS putting some man power into optimizing the VR code to increase performance and I am waiting for a new VR model with higher resolution (I don't want more FOV - I just want higher resolution and DCS being able to handle that).

 

One aspect which most players have issue with when flying VR is pushing buttons or turning knobs. It is important to map those UI controls on HOTAS buttons. I use Warthog HOTAS and my setup is as following:

 

Mic Switch Up: VR zoom

Paddle button: left mouse click

Pinky button + Paddle button: right click button

 

I configured pinky button as Modifier and use it together with stick switches to control NVG, Kneeboard, scrolling, labels, mouse cursor and other functions.

 

I NEVER put my hands off of the HOTAS controls. I don't use the mouse.

 

That said, I've been flying A-10C exclusively and using the cockpit functions with looking at them and then clicking them is easy. I might need to remap the buttons if they are used differently in other planes and I have yet to figure out a good setup for airplanes which have not modelled all buttons to be pressed in the cockpit (FC3).

Edited November 24, 2018 by dcs76
buttons

[Darth Holliday]

I've been using Track IR (paired with a very nice 27" monitor and 1080ti graphics card) for about 5 months now. 2 days ago I decided to give VR a shot with the Oculus Rift. I'll share my thoughts below...

 

I'll start by saying that the very first time you start the game up with the Rift and find yourself truly sitting in the cockpit (F-18, in my case), you can't help but simply say "WOW!!" out loud. I've never experienced VR before and it was even cooler than I imagined. I just sat there checking out all the gauges, dials, buttons etc in amazement as my jet started up. Once up in the air I was able to get the full sense of how it looks to take a hard turn, push into a vertical climb, or barrel roll right over a mountain top. All of those things were truly out of this world in VR and something I recommend anyone who plays DCS experience at least once, even if it's on someone else's setup. Words can't really describe it.

 

Another few things I noticed right away... flying smoothly in formation is much easier in VR. With the Rift I'm able to get much closer to other jets and remain in formation and make necessary small adjustments smoothly much easier than with Track IR. Also, carrier landing in VR is MUCH easier. With the monitor and Track IR, I can successfully hit the deck at the right spot/air speed maybe 3/5 times in a row. With VR I nailed the landing with ease 5/5 times. Something about the immersion of VR makes the overall flying experience feel much easier and natural.

 

Also... night flying. With my monitor and Track IR, night flying is next to impossible and not enjoyable. I avoid it at all costs. However, taking a flight at dusk in VR, especially in the Persian Gulf map is absolutely amazing. I just kept finding myself enjoying watching the sun duck behind the skyline as it went from low light to no light. Then, once the sun is down, in VR everything around you is much easier to see and the night landscape just looks great as you fly over. With track IR, everything beyond my gauges just look like a black screen.

 

But, with all that said, I still plan on returning the Oculus Rift later today or tomorrow. While the immersion of VR is absolutely nuts, it still has a ton of drawbacks which make it extremely difficult to justify the $400 cost.

 

For starters, trying to hit buttons and toggle switches on the fly is extremely clunky in VR. So much so that I often found myself peaking under the headset to quickly press a keyboard key to take care of it, rather than trying to fumble around with moving the mouse to the switch or button then left or right clicking it. You can only bind so many buttons/toggles to your HOTAS. And if you are like me and rely heavily on the in game chat, forget about it. I know Discord or the in game radio is ideal but hardly anyone uses it in the servers I use, so that's not really an option. I suppose if I was more efficient with the keyboard and could navigate my keyboard blindfolded (good comparison, in this case), it wouldn't be an issue. But that's definitely not me. And even then, in VR I found reading the text in the top left corner to be quite difficult, even with 20/15 vision.

 

Also, the graphics downgrade to the Rift from a high end graphics card is night and day and too much to overcome, in my opinion. There is a massive drop in screen resolution and everything in VR looks notably pixelated. Someone said it best earlier in this thread when they compared the Rift to looking at everything through a thick screen. That's spot on. I find it extremely difficult to make out planes, boats, or even air fields if they aren't within like 5nm. It may be more realistic this way, but it dramatically decreases the experience of the game, if you ask me. Going back to Track IR with a high end graphics card on max settings was a huge relief, visually.

 

So, in it's current form, I don't think VR (at least with the Oculus Rift) is worth the price of admission for DCS. If, at some point, Oculus or another brand release a solid 1080p or 4K option, I'll probably get it again and be very happy with it. But until then, I'll happily stick with Track IR.

 

 

I agree with everything you said !!!1 I thought it was absolutely amazing flying the F18 and Xplane Cessna and Mustang....It in fact got me a bit airsick...and like you I returned my Rift to Bestbuy and will await 1080P/4K...and work on my airsickness..:pilotfly:

[wilbur81]

I often found myself peaking under the headset to quickly press a keyboard key to take care of it, rather than trying to fumble around with moving the mouse to the switch or button then left or right clicking it. You can only bind so many buttons/toggles to your HOTAS.

 

I personally feel like the actual execution of the clickable cockpit is one of the most ridiculously impractical features of any air combat simulation. I need real/physical buttons, knobs, and switches.... as do real pilots. The idea of reaching 6 inches to hit a physical button with the hand (what a real pilot does) in a time-sensitive situation makes perfect sense. The idea of hitting that same 'button' after reaching for a mouse, looking at the screen to see where the cursor is, freezing your head movement, clicking, miss-clicking, and then clicking again....dumb... or 'clunky' as you put it, in VR or otherwise. This is a HUGE reason I don't take the VR plunge (there are other's too. :-))

Edited November 25, 2018 by wilbur81

[BigDuke6ixx]

I personally feel like the actual execution of the clickable cockpit is one of the most ridiculously impractical features of any air combat simulation. I need real/physical buttons, knobs, and switches.... as do real pilots. The idea of reaching 6 inches to hit a physical button with the hand (what a real pilot does) in a time-sensitive situation makes perfect sense. The idea of hitting that same 'button' after reaching for a mouse, looking at the screen to see where the cursor is, freezing your head movement, clicking, miss-clicking, and then clicking again....dumb... or 'clunky' as you put it, in VR or otherwise. This is a HUGE reason I don't take the VR plunge (there are other's too. :-))

 

I use VoiceAttck. With that I can have the mouse appear where I like in the cockpit via voice command, then position it over the switch i want to operate. I can then right or left click with voice command of hotas button press. Simple, intuitives, seamless...

[Fri13]

I personally feel like the actual execution of the clickable cockpit is one of the most ridiculously impractical features of any air combat simulation.

 

That fits to "study level" simulators as an requirements because you need to know how the aircraft design was done, why the buttons and switches are there and is as.

But comparing ie Su-25T to A-10C, there is not really much why to have clickable cockpit for TrackIR than what now speed up ie. CDU operations.

 

I need real/physical buttons, knobs, and switches.... as do real pilots. The idea of reaching 6 inches to hit a physical button with the hand (what a real pilot does) in a time-sensitive situation makes perfect sense. The idea of hitting that same 'button' after reaching for a mouse, looking at the screen to see where the cursor is, freezing your head movement, clicking, miss-clicking, and then clicking again....dumb... or 'clunky' as you put it, in VR or otherwise. This is a HUGE reason I don't take the VR plunge (there are other's too. :-))

 

Sorry but there you missing a experience. AFAIK, Vive owners don't have what RIFT owners has. That is the Oculus Touch controllers.

 

Those are what makes VR experience, not the HMD alone!

 

Mouse is nothing compared to those.

 

You still need to grab the controller on your lap, but you don't notice it. It is like grabbing a stick. Far different from mouse.

 

I waited the couple years to get the "gloves" implement, and when they did, WOW. I didn't get down in my guess how critical it is to experience compared to any other method.

 

Today I have very easy to do bindings, I search what is the real HOTAS functions and I bind those. I leave everything else unbind, even radio etc.

 

If I want to operate the aircraft, I do it as real pilot does, I need to move hands. I need to know which hand I need to use. Meaning, I can't use left hand to reach something on right wall, nor take right hand of the stick middle of the maneuver so I can operate weapons panel etc.

 

It totally changes the experience because you must be prepared for the task in future, so you don't need to remove hands from HOTAS.

 

A cockpit operation under autopilot is more effortless as you can use two hands to click around. Starting aircraft is faster and easier etc.

 

In future when a controllers become a ring as one member has here producing, or we get gloves, things change a lot again. Then you can just grab the cockpit as back to HOTAS. Wow!!

 

VR users who doesn't use controllers are missing like 90% of the VR experience. It ain't the goggles, it is the controls and clickable cockpits.

 

Yesterday I started to fly Su-25T after longer period flying the harrier, hornet etc, and I constantly reached to adjust mirrors, set weapons panel or autopilot.

 

It was like going back to display use without TrackIR when I needed to use multiple functions on HOTAS to operate aircraft.

 

And no, voice attack doesn't cut it. You are not going to experience it. It is cheap option to keyboard and unrealistic for any other than radio calls.

 

The DCS study level simulator is near complete only once use starts to use VR controllers.

The next step is to get a 2-axis full rotation simulator box.

 

To fly in VR without controllers? It is like TrackIR...

 

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[wilbur81]

That fits to "study level" simulators as an requirements because you need to know how the aircraft design was done, why the buttons and switches are there and is as.

But comparing ie Su-25T to A-10C, there is not really much why to have clickable cockpit for TrackIR than what now speed up ie. CDU operations.

 

 

 

Sorry but there you missing a experience. AFAIK, Vive owners don't have what RIFT owners has. That is the Oculus Touch controllers.

 

Those are what makes VR experience, not the HMD alone!

 

Mouse is nothing compared to those.

 

You still need to grab the controller on your lap, but you don't notice it. It is like grabbing a stick. Far different from mouse.

 

I waited the couple years to get the "gloves" implement, and when they did, WOW. I didn't get down in my guess how critical it is to experience compared to any other method.

 

Today I have very easy to do bindings, I search what is the real HOTAS functions and I bind those. I leave everything else unbind, even radio etc.

 

If I want to operate the aircraft, I do it as real pilot does, I need to move hands. I need to know which hand I need to use. Meaning, I can't use left hand to reach something on right wall, nor take right hand of the stick middle of the maneuver so I can operate weapons panel etc.

 

It totally changes the experience because you must be prepared for the task in future, so you don't need to remove hands from HOTAS.

 

A cockpit operation under autopilot is more effortless as you can use two hands to click around. Starting aircraft is faster and easier etc.

 

In future when a controllers become a ring as one member has here producing, or we get gloves, things change a lot again. Then you can just grab the cockpit as back to HOTAS. Wow!!

 

VR users who doesn't use controllers are missing like 90% of the VR experience. It ain't the goggles, it is the controls and clickable cockpits.

 

Yesterday I started to fly Su-25T after longer period flying the harrier, hornet etc, and I constantly reached to adjust mirrors, set weapons panel or autopilot.

 

It was like going back to display use without TrackIR when I needed to use multiple functions on HOTAS to operate aircraft.

 

And no, voice attack doesn't cut it. You are not going to experience it. It is cheap option to keyboard and unrealistic for any other than radio calls.

 

The DCS study level simulator is near complete only once use starts to use VR controllers.

The next step is to get a 2-axis full rotation simulator box.

 

To fly in VR without controllers? It is like TrackIR...

 

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

 

Not sure if you were responding to my post with all this above?... but I'll state my point again and stand by it: Having physical buttons, switches, and knobs to manipulate with my real hands and fingers will always be preferable to and more realistic than mouse clicking stuff on a screen. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

 

Thrustmaster or someone: Please release some cool usb button boxes and I'll buy. ;-)

[Fri13]

Not sure if you were responding to my post with all this above?... but I'll state my point again and stand by it: Having physical buttons, switches, and knobs to manipulate with my real hands and fingers will always be preferable to and more realistic than mouse clicking stuff on a screen. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

 

Thrustmaster or someone: Please release some cool usb button boxes and I'll buy. ;-)

 

I understood that your point, but your point is based to mouse. Not to the virtual cockpit with the buttons, switches etc in their correct positions.

 

A pointer device like a mouse is nothing like a other kind pointer device than like Oculus Touch controller or "MilesD" developed new VR pointer https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=218861

 

Neither of those are the same as real hand with hardware, but you can jump from aircraft to another and you can have ALL aircraft functions right there with your hand. Alone the requirement you to reach out to the button, switch etc is huge immersion creator.

 

A perfect SimPit would not either be perfect with VR, because you don't actually get all aligned correctly even then. It would then be better just get a 180 spherical projector and use that.

So going to the second best thing, is really a VR + gloves that has good tracking with hands. Not a mouse cursor but a hand gloves tracking like Oculus Touch has now, but not requiring to grab a controller or have any controller in hand.

 

That is why I am interested about MilesD implementation, but I would like to see it not as pointing device as mouse cursor, but as a dot in space that floats. So you need to get that "dot" on the buttons and switches etc in 6-DOF space, not just mouse cursor.

 

I would as well like to see the VR gloves changed so the virtual finger tip is the element, without any "laser beam" coming from it.

 

With the current "VR gloves" one can hop from module to another without requirement to have any other physical controllers. And only physical controller being same is the HOTAS, nothing else.

[hansangb]

Not sure if you were responding to my post with all this above?... but I'll state my point again and stand by it: Having physical buttons, switches, and knobs to manipulate with my real hands and fingers will always be preferable to and more realistic than mouse clicking stuff on a screen. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

 

Thrustmaster or someone: Please release some cool usb button boxes and I'll buy. ;-)

 

 

 

 

There are several available

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2691395&postcount=1

http://derekspearedesigns.com/button-controllers.html

https://www.kanttorinkone.com/index.html

https://www.facebook.com/RGcustom/posts/first-10pcs-of-mk4-was/558185197866717/

 

 

https://virpil.com/en/blog/89-introducing-the-vpc-mongoost-50-throttle

[BigDuke6ixx]

Not sure if you were responding to my post with all this above?... but I'll state my point again and stand by it: Having physical buttons, switches, and knobs to manipulate with my real hands and fingers will always be preferable to and more realistic than mouse clicking stuff on a screen. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

 

Thrustmaster or someone: Please release some cool usb button boxes and I'll buy. ;-)

 

Flat 2D panels are a bit sad compared to actually having the feeling of being right there in the cockpit that you get with VR. Looking into a miniature world through a glass monitor and manipulating it from without is completely unacceptable to me now after having VR.

[thestardawg]

I really don't like either option tbh.

 

TrackIR seems to only work in a room with no windows or night time. Lots of unrealistic movements, like you got a giraffe neck.

 

VR is just uncomfortable. Blurry.

[BigDuke6ixx]

I really don't like either option tbh.

 

TrackIR seems to only work in a room with no windows or night time. Lots of unrealistic movements, like you got a giraffe neck.

 

VR is just uncomfortable. Blurry.

 

I’ve not noticed blur unless I’m not looking through the sweet spot and my rift is perfectly comfortable.

I thought track ir was awesome 20yrs ago but things have moved on.