Understanding CAP ?

[CougarFFW04]

Hi everybody,

 

 

I am new to DCS and DCS Mission Editor and I want to apologyse if someone already anserwed this question but I didn't find what I was looking for.

 

 

So the question is the following : I would like to create a simple mission with a plane (doesn't matter which) taking-off (doesn't matter where) for a CAP mission. The flight plan would be just 3 WPT (0 (airbase), 1 and 2 (turning points)) and I would like that the plane loops on WPT1 <-> WPT2 for a given duration (let's say 15 mn for the discussion) before RTB.

 

 

 

I tried this but I was unsucessfull to achieve this simple scenario.

 

First I just setup the discussed Flight Plan with the default CAP enroute task. As the manual mation :

 

The CAP mission task implies flying a large race-track pattern using looped waypoints around a defined route to defend an area from enemy aircraft incursion.

I thought they would loop WPT1, 2 automatically BUT in fact they flew through WPT1 and WPT2 and then RTB to land.

 

Then I validated the starting task condition to 100% and the stopping condition to 15mn duration but this didn't changed anything.

 

Finally I was able to make them looping WPT1 <-> WP2 by adding a command option at WPT2 (switch to WPT1) but they still ignore the duration condition whatever I did :(

 

I have noticed the "Last Waypoint" option in the stopping condition but didn't find something about it in the documentation (edit : got it p150 of the manual). I tried this as well but it didn't change anything.

 

What did I do wrong ? what did I miss ?

 

I have also a question about the dotted line flight path that show when we run a mission in map mode and click on a flight (it's path is displayed with the waypoints as circle symbols). I have noticed that sometime when the plane pass the WPT it is erased and the plane is linked to the next one. Sometime it isn't... What does this mean (erased / not erased) ?

 

Looking forward for help,

 

Thanks

Edited July 27, 2018 by CougarFFW04

[feefifofum]

At waypoint 1 add the action:

Perform task -> orbit

 

Select type as race track. Set desired speed and altitude (remember speed is in true speed, not IAS) Click the stop condition box, select duration and set desired time. :thumbup:

[CougarFFW04]

At waypoint 1 add the action:

Perform task -> orbit

 

Select type as race track. Set desired speed and altitude (remember speed is in true speed, not IAS) Click the stop condition box, select duration and set desired time. :thumbup:

 

 

Hi,

 

 

Thanks for your advise.

I know this,

 

But actually it is NOT what I want to do.

I DO want that they loops on MY WPT1 and 2.

 

 

Thanks anyway

[feefifofum]

That is exactly what they will do. A racetrack orbit at wp1 will push the flight back and forth between wp1 and wp2. A circle type orbit will just fly around the starting waypoint.

 

I DO recommend you try it. ;)

[CougarFFW04]

Hi feefifofum

 

Thanks.

 

As there is no parameters for the circle orbit I thought that the racetrack would do the same (different géometry) around WPT.

 

Although the documentation is not very clear about that, the track picture suggests that you are right.

 

Will try and report.

 

What about the dashed flight path connected/not connected in F10 view ?

 

Thanks.

[feefifofum]

That simply shows the route between waypoints, not an exact flight path. It's a new feature.

 

I don't need a report, I am well aware that it works ;) I have designed DLC campaign content for the sim.

[Frederf]

The implies wording suggests more of a "you probably want to use this in that context" than "this is what behavior will happen." It's not going to loop the flight plan for you.

 

One also must be careful of task priority. If you have the orbit active task above the CAP en route task then it will prioritize orbiting over CAPing and not engage.

 

The racetrack task uses the current and next waypoint to define the pattern but if the latter point is something significant like landing then it will possibly disrupt the task.

[feefifofum]

Incorrect on all points.

 

Regarding the orbit, they just fly a circle instead of a racetrack. But OP's waypoint 2 isn't a landing, it's a point on the flight plan, which works just fine.

 

They will absolutely still engage targets that approach their orbit.

 

Here are missions demonstrating both the scenario you described and OP's desired scenario.

Orbit set on landing with low priority cap.miz

15 minute racetrack with high priority cap.miz

[CougarFFW04]

Thanks feefifofum,

 

 

I will have look at your missions

[Frederf]

I think we agree that the CAP enroute task does nothing on its own to do anything special but follow the waypoints in normal transit. The plane does the CAP task en route while following the flight plan.

 

Incorrect on all points.

 

Education time. Examine"Orbit set on landing....miz".

 

The fact the F-15s shoot the Su-27 is not due to the CAP task. They're shooting the Su-27 because it's a threat and they are reacting as they are allowed. They do the same actions even if you delete their CAP task from the mission entirely. Replace the Su-27 with a non-threat like Viggen to do a true test of CAP function.

 

Given setup:

1. Orbit(H = Hwpt = 20000 feet) -/?

2. CAP

They will not engage the Viggen. They are not performing CAP.

 

Given setup:

1. CAP

2. Orbit(H = Hwpt = 20000 feet) -/?

They will.

 

Note that racetrack orbit is not happening between waypoint 1 and 2 correctly. They just sort of circle in an aimless way. This is because waypoint 2 is a landing type waypoint. The AI gets confused and don't fly the normal racetrack between the waypoint of the racetrack task and the next. However if a new waypoint between the orbit and landing waypoints is made then the racetrack occurs as expected.

 

In the mission "15 minute racetrack..." the CAP enroute task is defined in waypoint 0 and the orbit task is defined in waypoint 1. As such it's impossible to mis-prioritize the orbit task higher than the CAP since the CAP task started on the waypoint previous. In fact the waypoint properties looks distinct having two number 1 in the list:

1. CAP -a -ref

1. Orbit(H = Hwpt = 20000 feet) -/?

 

Regarding OP's orbit trouble: Maybe they are chasing something or you accidentally disabled the task or it's not priority. I don't know. The absolutely simplest mission I can think of: new mission, place A-10, add waypoint 1, set waypoint 0 task racetrack orbit, fly; makes a functioning orbit.

 

As for the dotted line it connects the unit/group-leader to the currently assigned waypoint. If they pass it and it doesn't change that means it's still their current waypoint because they're tasked somehow. The orbit task should keep the waypoint which initiated the orbit current until it's no longer current. With CAP or CAS they can fly far away doing their jobs and still have that waypoint current.

[CougarFFW04]

Hi Guys,

Thanks a lot for the tips :thumbup:

 

I am gonna experiment this now.

 

Regarding Flight path on map, although I certainly missed something, I did a simple mission with four planes taking off for a "none task" mission where they are supposed to fly along their path. F10 view shows that although they pass WPT1, the dashed line stay sticked to it till they pass WPT3 which has nothing special... Anyway please do not discuss it here as I will come back to this in another thread because this behavior seems very strange to me.

 

Dont worry I have still many more questions :lol:

[feefifofum]

You said "will not engage." You have revised your statement now and we agree they still engage threats. It's a technicality, sure, but my point is your first statement was and remains broad and incorrect. Furthermore it addresses an irrelevant contingency that was not being discussed until you brought it up.

 

You said "disrupt the task." It's not aimless, they clearly perform a circular orbit around their first waypoint even if the second waypoint in the racetrack is a landing waypoint, which I doubt anyone would ever do or was ever discussed in this thread...until you brought it up.

 

OP's issues were that his aircraft were not performing a race track orbit with two viable waypoints but a circular one, and he could not figure out how to limit time on station, both of which were corrected before you came in here waving it around. Both of the statements you made about your irrelevant points are technically incorrect. They will engage threats, they will orbit. That is the only thing the doin it rong .miz was illustrating, not sound design...for that, we have the second .miz that does what OP actually wants with proper task prioritization.

 

K thx love you! Good luck Cougar :thumbup:

Not every thread deteriorates into a pissing match around here, don't worry.

Edited July 28, 2018 by feefifofum

[Frederf]

They don't engage in the same way that they would if they were actually CAP task. Anyway, the warning was in relation to task prioritization "if you think it's doing this task, it's not."

 

It's of course not aimless. But it's not a circular orbit. They're still doing a racetrack but it's 090/270 with short-ish leg lengths (not sure how they are determining baseline length). I'm guessing that the orbit parameters are null-default so it's just going direction zero (which would be east navigationally).

[feefifofum]

Yep and yep. Interesting re: the tiny self-assigned racetrack, didn't notice in the F10 map but just looked at it in TacView.

[CougarFFW04]

Hi,

 

A few more questions about that :

 

1) The CAP scenario I was discussing includes two different tasks : CAP itself and Orbits. Concerning the duration which one should I set ? CAP duration ? Orbit duration ? Both ? When do the tasks start ?

 

2) Let's say that I do not want them to get away from more than 25 miles from their path. Is it possible to assign a maximum distance of engagement ? I didn't find this parameter in the CAP task (Not speaking here about a completly new home made CAP task with a area trigger).

 

3) I have noticed that when they detect a threat they fly at high speed towards the ennemi. However, after engagement they return to their path at the path speed (which I setup at 270 knt). Is it possible to make them returning to their path at hight speed without changing the track speed ?

 

4) Although I cannot find the page right now, the manual claims that when the task is selected, the planes are loaded with the corresponding missile, bombs or whatever. When I choose CAP, the plane loadout is empty by default... Comments ?

 

 

Thanks again.

Edited July 29, 2018 by CougarFFW04

[feefifofum]

1) Depends on what you want. With the CAP task active and prioritized they will engage any aircraft detected belonging to the other coalition. With CAP inactive they will only engage aircraft actively threatening them as we saw in the first .miz posted. Tasks assigned through Advanced Waypoint Actions start at the moment the flight reaches that waypoint; tasks set at wp0/sp start immediately as soon as the flight spawns in. "Enroute" type tasks continue once started until a stop condition is met.

If you wanted your flight not to be aggressive unless on station, you would start both tasks at the first point of their racetrack orbit, with CAP at the top, and apply the duration stop condition to both

 

2) Use "search then engage in zone" instead of CAP

 

3) I don't think so

 

4) The list of preconfigured loadouts changes to reflect the task type, but loadouts must still be manually assigned.

[CougarFFW04]

Hi feefifofum

 

 

Thanks a lot for your advises :thumbup:

 

 

 

 

3) I don't think so

 

 

What I have observed...

They travel to the threat at > 400knt

They return to their path orbit at 270knt (orbit speed).

[feefifofum]

Might be worth experimenting to see if they'll speed up if you set the waypoint arrival speed to XXX knots but leave the orbit speed at 270.

I'm not sure if they're returning with the waypoint parameters then re-entering the orbit parameters, or just returning to the orbit. I'm inclined to think they are just returning to orbit parameters :dunno: