birdstrike Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 some time ago, i began to mod my trusty msffb2 stick. i extended it slightly and exchanged the grip with the one of a ch fighterstick. as i kept the board of the fighterstick, the stick is now recognized by windows and all sims as two sticks...the axis are recognized as a msffb2 stick, and the buttons on the grip are shown as a regular fighterstick.(i did it this way to keep the possibilty of using the ch control manager software) im really happy with the result...nevertheless...time passes by, and i begin to want more... i have read some "rumors" that with using a leo bodnar board instead of the default electronics the msffb2 ships with, you can not only get rid of the in-built deadzone, but also get a greater resolution out of the axis, resulting in higher precision.... QUESTION: is that true? now if the above is true, im willing to invest in such a project...the problem is, im lacking in the necessary knowledge yet...i hope some of you guys who are not lacking in this regard, could enlighten me, on what exactly is needed and on how to put the parts together...usefull links would also be very welcome. (if memory serves me right, somewhere existed a thread/article, about i think a russian guy who did exactly this, combined a bodnar board with the msffb2 stick, and documented it in detail...i just cannot find it anymore) every help would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokol1_br Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 If you wire MSFFB2 axes to Bodnar Bu0836 you will lost all FFB effects, that are done in MS circuit. Perhaps read this topic give a better understanding about the matter: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=172964 The only 'mod' I see for MSFFB2 - besides replace grip with one better like you did, is install bearings in axes pivots points and replace potentiometer with HALL sensor (SS495A1, A1424EUAT) or MagRez (GVL224), not because this make the axis more "precise", but for replace a worn out potentiometer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 hey sokol...i was expecting that u would be one of the first to post in this thread... i have to say ur answer really surprises me...u really lose the ffb effects of the stick with a different board? i mean thinking about it it makes sense, but there are quite a few people who did such a mod with the sidewinder, so im confused as to why they did when it means to lose the ffb...are u 100% positive that there is no way to get rid of the deadzone and get more resoultion with such a board(doesnt have to be a bodnar board) and still keep the ffb effects? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydost Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Hi! You cannot replace the msffb2 electronics with bodnar board. Instead you want to keep the msffb2 electronics intact and additionally connect the msffb2 pots to a bodnar (or something similar) board. In the game use the bodnar board for pitch and roll control so the position info for the game comes from bodnar so you'll get better resolution and eliminate the in built deadzone. You'll just have to bind one axis in the game to msffb2 too so that the game sends FFB commands to the msffb2 electronics. Usually I bind the roll axis to msffb2 and put 100% deadzone to it so it won't mess up with the info coming from the bodnar roll channel. I think the resolution in msffb2 is fine already but I did this to get rid of the deadzone especially on pitch axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 (edited) ah ok nice so its possible. so is it a noticeable difference in terms of precision? for example on all my 3msffb sticks i have slight jitters on both axis. would be nice if i could reduce or even eliminate them with this mod... is it much effort to connect the pots to the board? which board exactly would i need and which tools are necessary for the work... Edited August 8, 2018 by birdstrike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydost Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Msffb2 has 1024 steps and 12 bit board like bodnar has 4096 so on paper it is quite a big difference. While flying I doubt that you'll see the difference since 1024 is already plenty for a joystick. About the jitter. I don't think it'll cure it since it probably originates from the pots and not the msffb2 electronics. That is just my wild guess so you might be positively surprised if you just try it and see how it works. I think it is unusual to have jitter in msffb2. I have five units and none of them have jitter. Could it be something your computer does? Easy job to connect the pots if you have done some soldering before. Soldering iron, wire cutters and electrical wire are needed so just basic stuff. About the board. Bodnar has bu0836a or bu0836x which are the ones I have used. Very easy to use. Don't know much about other options but for example Teensy or something similar works. Simply anything your computer sees as a joystick. Oh and forgot to mention that this method of using different input device to the sim than the FFB device works only with DCS to my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 (edited) hey sydost! first of all thx! well about the jitter...i have 3 sidewinders at home, and every single one of them has this jitter...its not when the stick is in dead center, as then the in-built deadzone prevents the jitters. its only when i pull the stick outside of center and try to keep it in position...then in dcs i can see the virtual stick moving/jitter slightly up and down. when i dont watch that virtual stick in dcs i dont notice it. so the movements when looking outside the cockpit are still smooth and no jitter is detectable. but again, i have this on all of my 3 sidewinders, and all my friends have this behaviour too. neither the thrustmaster warthog nor my MFG pedals have this, so i dont assume its the pc causing it but the stick. its not much though. i am convinced that u are right in that its probably the pots that cause it... i can live with it, but i could imagine that with the higher resolution of the bodnar board these jitters become less severe. as theoretically now when it jumps from one to the next step/position, it wouldnt be 1/1000 of the whole range but only 1/4000... the missing deadzone is something i am really looking forward to...so this alone will be worth the effort. ok...soldering...i will have to re-learn it i think, as last time i soldered something was like 15years ago in school. and even back then i sucked in it :) but im sure i can get it done without too much trouble. ok...so u mentioned u used 2 different boards? i could go with either of them? and yes, having ffb working while actually using another "stick" for the axis is only working in dcs...but with that mod, i could still fly every other sim with just mapping the original sidewinder axis...so nothing is lost with this mod afaik. Edited August 8, 2018 by birdstrike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydost Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Well, yes now that I checked I do also have a jitter of about one step. At first I thought that you were talking about something more significant. My setup was such that I had BU0836A board in my pedals and as there happened to be two vacant axis inputs left I wanted to use those instead of buying a separate board for my stick. So I had quite a long cable via couple of connectors going from stick to pedals and that resulted in bigger jitter of about 10 steps (in 4000) but I found that to still be acceptable. I tested it first with shorter wiring and then the jitter was much smaller but I cannot remember was there any, was it still one step or was it four. But anyway the point of this modification is to get rid of the deadzone which it does very nicely. Yeah you can go with either board. They operate the same and the only difference is the connections. The more expensive BU0836X has push in wire connectors so no soldering needed at the board's end and it has a built in button matrix so no need to make one if you plan to use the button options. If you are only going to use it for the joystick axes I'd buy the cheaper one (BU0836A). It is enough if you just solder an additional wire to come from the pots center leg and attach it to the BU0836's input pin. If I remember correctly I did also connect the ground pin on one of the pots to the BU0836 so that all the circuit boards would be grounded together. So I have only three wires coming from MSFFB2 to Bodnar. As it was difficult to reach the pot I just stripped part of the wire coming from the pot and soldered the additional wire there. And of course remember to cover the stripped wire and soldering with electrical tape at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted August 9, 2018 Author Share Posted August 9, 2018 thx very much again! this doesnt sound too complicated at all...will order the BU0836A board then, as i only need it for the axis. once i have it, i hope i can ask u some more few questions so that i dont end up soldering the wrong wires together or something similar :) so far your input was very much appreciated! thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydost Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 No problem. Glad to be of some help. :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 ok...got the bodnar board finally...now are there any pictures around showing the wires of the pots of the msffb2, and where to connect them to the bodnar board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokol1_br Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 (edited) What Bodnar board - A or X? BU0836A pot connection: The only critical pin is INPUT, if invert +5V and GND will just invert pot reading direction. Bodnar controllers automatically disable analog input's that don't have pot/sensor connected - an welcome feature. The small pot is a MS FFB2 pot, but no info about what is +5V and GND wires. http://il2.kubannet.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=16085 Tip - Don't make solder on pot tab's - iron solder heat can damage pot trails. If opt in do, use heat dissipation clips (for solder). BTW - If eventually need pot replacement contact Rel4y in this forum, he make "MagREZ" (KMZ-41) contactless sensor PBC, that work in analog mode, so is direct replacement for pot. Edited April 1, 2019 by Sokol1_br Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 (edited) hey sokol! thx for your answer. i have the X board....now on the first glance, it doesnt seem to fit into the sidewinder base, its bigger than expected. so i have to come up with a solution on where to place that board now... looking at your picture, i assume these are the wires for the pots? so i could just connect the bodnar board to the wires instead of to the pots directly? Edited April 2, 2019 by birdstrike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydost Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 looking at your picture, i assume these are the wires for the pots? so i could just connect the bodnar board to the wires instead of to the pots directly? Yeah those are correct. You need to connect only the two input wires to the bu0836x. Red wire is x-axis pot output and green is y-axis pot output. On the Bu0836x you connect the wires respectively to x input and y input. On the picture those are second and fifth connector from left on the bottom row. I stripped a small section of the wire midway and soldered the wire to the bu0836x there and then put some electric tape to cover the stripped part. That way you don't have to remove the gimbal to rech the pots. You must keep the original wiring to the MSFFB2 intact and just tap the output information to bu0836x to keep the FFB working as it should. To get it working in game you map the x and y axis to bu0836x and in addition you have to assign one axis to MSFFB2 (yes you have dual binding). I usually assign roll to either the MSFFB2 rudder or throttle axis as I don't use those and then increase the deadzone for that input to maximum so that it doesn't send any information to DCS. This has to be done to activate FFB in DCS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokol1_br Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 i have the X board....now on the first glance, it doesnt seem to fit into the sidewinder base, its bigger than expected. ? Now "Inês is dead" but... ;) 'X' is a bad option for this kind of modifications: - Cost almost twice - Is big and don't fit inside joystick case. They only "PRO" is that avoid solder of wires* in inputs, but since you need solder the other tip of wire... :D 'X' is good for make button boxes because avoid deal with button matrix, diodes. * In BU0836A you don't make solder in input pins, but is pins of small connectors furnished, and just plug this connector in BU pins. sydost You mean wire in this way? bbva compass bank locations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 (edited) ok...damn, i just saw, that the A board seems to be much much smaller... i already got the board of the ch-fighterstick put into the msffb2 base, so there is not much room left, but i think i could still fit the A board into it maybe...so i might just buy the A board as well... (the reason i bought the X board was that there is no soldering required. i dont have a soldering iron, and the last time i did some soldering work, was like 15years ago. and i sucked in it back then, so i want to avoid it if possible. the wires themselves i would put together with heat shrinking tubes, just like i did with the ch-fighterstick grip, that is now placed on my msffb2 base) so just to confirm, i would only need to connect the 2 wires (red and green) to the bodnar board and thats it? if thats the case, than this would be really easy... now looking at the A board though...could i somehow avoid soldering and still get the wires onto it? looking at the bodnar site: would this work: http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=83&products_id=209 ? Edited April 2, 2019 by birdstrike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydost Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 You mean wire in this way? Yes, exactly. That's how I have it and it works perfectly. Birdstrike, yes the A board is a lot smaller and cheaper too. And for your purposes it is enough to connect only red and green wires to Bodnar. About the 2-pin wire, the connector is perfect for the A board since the pins you want to use are next to each other so you'd get away with buying only one. You just need to figure out a way to connect the open ends to MSFFB2 wires if you don't want to solder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokol1_br Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 (edited) would this work: http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=83&products_id=209 ? For connect in BU0836 this plug work, has the same 1.25 space between pins. Connect like sydost say: But for connect this wire in MS FFB2 wire going for their pot the ideal is use solder*, just twist the wires is not ideal. * You can pay someone for do this, e.g. people that install sound in cars. Edited April 2, 2019 by Sokol1_br Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 (edited) perfect! thx to you both! so i will order the A board and the connector now. in regards of soldering...well, i will just do it the dirty way, cut the wires half way, connect them to the wires coming from the bodnar board, and put heat shrinking tubes around them to keep them fixed. is a dirty way, but works perfectly fine. re-connected all the wires this way from my ch-fighterstick grip back to the board again, back when i replaced the sidewinder grip with it. now there is only one question remaining. sokol, you talked about re4ly doing mag rez sensors...would it be worth it to replace the still working pots with such sensors? i heard replacing the pots with hall effect sensors isnt really an improvement...but what about those mag rez sensors? i guess they are better than the 100year old pots in my sidewinder, question is, would it be worth the effort, and how much effort would it be to replace the pots? Edited April 2, 2019 by birdstrike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydost Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 I think your method of connecting the wires is ok for buttons (on or off) but with accurate analog signal I think it might produce some unwanted noise. Of course it doesn't hurt to try it first if you prefer it that way and see how it works. Sokol knows more about the magrez sensors but I think that if there is nothing wrong with your pots then there is not much point in upgrading those now (even the rel4y kit seems very nice). Only reason to change is if rel4y stops making the magrez sensors and you can't get those anymore when / if your pots eventually turn bad. You can check from windows calibration if there is any jitter or spikes in your existing pots. There is an option to see the raw values and if the numbers are quite steady you are good to go. I have several MSFFB2 sticks and none of those has bad or defective pots even the sticks are real old. The MSFFB2 pots are located right next to the FFB motors in a quite tight spot and the FFB motors might interfere with the magnetic field of the magrez sensor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokol1_br Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 (edited) you talked about re4ly doing mag rez sensors...would it be worth it to replace the still working pots with such sensors? i heard replacing the pots with hall effect sensors isnt really an improvement...but what about those mag rez sensors? Take this MagREZ sensors as option for replace original pots* - WHEN they worm out. If now they are working OK, spike free: "if ain't broken, don't fix". ;) Just replace a good pot of MS FFB2 with contacless sensor will don't show any improvement in use - are a topic there in what the guy test this. * Just because is high probable that you don't find the original pot for buy when need, their specifications is not know, someone (of joystick Industry) suspect that are Panasonic made, rated 5/10M cycles. Edited April 2, 2019 by Sokol1_br Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted April 4, 2019 Author Share Posted April 4, 2019 I think your method of connecting the wires is ok for buttons (on or off) but with accurate analog signal I think it might produce some unwanted noise. Of course it doesn't hurt to try it first if you prefer it that way and see how it works. Sokol knows more about the magrez sensors but I think that if there is nothing wrong with your pots then there is not much point in upgrading those now (even the rel4y kit seems very nice). Only reason to change is if rel4y stops making the magrez sensors and you can't get those anymore when / if your pots eventually turn bad. You can check from windows calibration if there is any jitter or spikes in your existing pots. There is an option to see the raw values and if the numbers are quite steady you are good to go. I have several MSFFB2 sticks and none of those has bad or defective pots even the sticks are real old. The MSFFB2 pots are located right next to the FFB motors in a quite tight spot and the FFB motors might interfere with the magnetic field of the magrez sensor. of course u are right with doing it the professional way, would be a better approach, but i will still try it the dirty way and see how it works.(as i dont have a soldering iron, and right now also dont know anybody who does and who is into such things). anyway i will report back and let u guys know how it went once the board is here...hopefully soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries144 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I was just in-flight refueling the harrier the other day and cursing the deadzone on my msff2. I've got a Leo Bodner board and I'm going to do this soon. Thank you guys very much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokol1_br Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 (edited) ... but i will still try it the dirty way and see how it works. A interesting option for connect wires without iron solder, Scotchlock connectors. Edited April 5, 2019 by Sokol1_br Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horus-DCS Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 eliminate the in built deadzone. Does it mean this mod can eliminate the deadzone of force feedbak or that of input value? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts