INS cheat available in MP

[QuiGon]

I start this thread, because there is huge problem with the way RAZBAM implements INS alignment in regard to multiplayer: As with the M2000 RAZBAM will offer the option to skip the INS alignment process for the Harrier in the special options menu. So far, no problem. The problem is when it comes to MP and competitive gameplay, because unlike with the M2000, which has the option for server admins to enforce INS alignment for all players through the Mission Editor, the Harrier won't have such an option as RAZBAM confirmed on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RazbamSims/posts/1816738995079397?comment_id=1816744305078866&reply_comment_id=1816784218408208

No. It won't be enforceable via ME. INS default alignment status is a personal choice.

While this is fine in regard to SP, this is quite a problem for competitive MP gameplay where players that use this cheat option will have an advantage over others that don't use it and thus can be in the target area of an objective much quicker. :mad:

 

I started this thread to raise awareness of this problem and hope that RAZBAM rethinks about implementing such an option for server admins / missions designers to allow for fair competitive gameplay in MP.

Edited August 7, 2018 by QuiGon

[dimitrischal]

I think this thread belogs in the dcs world forum as it affects the game as a whole.

 

Avionics reproduction accuracy in mp is not a personal choice, ED have no option like this except in avionics game mode, same as other developers.

RAZBAM make modules of iconic planes that appeal to the casual player so their choice of implementation caters for this crowd but is fundamentaly wrong as this game is in it core still a simulator.

 

Other planes have INS systems, why should razbam only get to do this and everybody else has a proper start sequence in place( and no way to skip the alignment in sim mode)?

And furthermore why shouldn't the mission maker have a choice?

[QuiGon]

I know you have been told this before but it will be enforced by the mission designers. You are crying about something that hasn't even been implemented yet. Has this been an issue with the mirage? No... because the mission designers have enforced INS alignment and drift on the servers where it matters.

 

Edit: Also, not having to align in the harrier is going to save what 3-4 minutes. That's not so much quicker that it's a huge advantage.

Have you read what I said? RAZBAM confirmed on FB, that it is not possible for mission designers to enforce INS alignment for the Harrier, unlike with the Mirage where it is possible! This is new now!

 

It might not be a huge advantage in most situations, but it is still an unfair advantage and in some missions, that require you to be quick on the spot before the enemy can react, it does actually make a big difference.

[defeatist99]

Have you read what I said? RAZBAM confirmed on FB, that it is not possible for mission designers to enforce INS alignment for the Harrier, unlike with the Mirage where it is possible! This is new now!

 

It might not be a huge advantage in most situations, but it is still an unfair advantage and in some missions, that require you to be quick on the spot before the enemy can react, it does actually make a big difference.

 

Sorry I didn't see the new info from razbam. I apologize for that. I don't know why they would allow enforcement of it on the mirage but not the harrier. Honestly though it really isn't going to make a difference. Is it making a huge difference now? Because you don't have to do it now and it's not server breaking. You are making a big deal out of not much, because when the rest of the startup is done for the harrier it's going to take just as long. The INS would be started by the time you finish starting the aircraft anyway. Just like it wouldn't matter if you didn't have to align the A-10.

 

You could also say the same thing about every single FC3 aircraft. You don't have to go through any startup process at all. The turn around time for CAP is literally nothing. By your logic all FC3 aircraft should be banned too.

Edited August 8, 2018 by defeatist99

[QuiGon]

Sorry I didn't see the new info from razbam. I apologize for that. I don't know why they would allow enforcement of it on the mirage but not the harrier. Honestly though it really isn't going to make a difference. Is it making a huge difference now? Because you don't have to do it now and it's not server breaking. You are making a big deal out of not much, because when the rest of the startup is done for the harrier it's going to take just as long. The INS would be started by the time you finish starting the aircraft anyway. Just like it wouldn't matter if you didn't have to align the A-10.

 

You could also say the same thing about every single FC3 aircraft. You don't have to go through any startup process at all. The turn around time for CAP is literally nothing. By your logic all FC3 aircraft should be banned too.

The impact of this issue is very much mission dependend. Some servers set the fuel level of FC3 aircraft to 0, to force them to refuel on startup to simulate alignment time. I don't understand why you are against an options to enforce alignment for server admins, like with the Mirage? It would not harm anyone as it would be up to each server admin to decide if he wants to make use of the enforcement or not.

And believe it or not, there are missions where scrambling fast (e.g. at the beginning of the mission/round) is important and unlike with the A-10C, there is not much set up work needed in the Harrier.

[dimitrischal]

Sorry I didn't see the new info from razbam. I apologize for that. I don't know why they would allow enforcement of it on the mirage but not the harrier. Honestly though it really isn't going to make a difference. Is it making a huge difference now? Because you don't have to do it now and it's not server breaking. You are making a big deal out of not much, because when the rest of the startup is done for the harrier it's going to take just as long. The INS would be started by the time you finish starting the aircraft anyway. Just like it wouldn't matter if you didn't have to align the A-10.

 

You could also say the same thing about every single FC3 aircraft. You don't have to go through any startup process at all. The turn around time for CAP is literally nothing. By your logic all FC3 aircraft should be banned too.

 

First of all it’s a matter of principle. We want realistic avionics not player friendly avionics in sim mode. Options are good but being unable to force full realism as a mission maker in a sim is ridiculous.

Second the harrier is in beta so it’s normal for things not to be implemented. But now we have confirmation that things will stay like this on release version.

And third and worse for me is developers making shortcuts for actual aircraft weaknesses and flaws to cater for casual players’ demands in full sim mode. This is detrimental to the overal experience of determined and invested players and a total buzzkill in MP.

Another developer admitted tweaking the fm of their product making it LESS realistic but easier and received severe backlash. Isn’t this a simulator after all?

[MrDieing]

Somebody give me a scenario where this would be a huge problem. I cant see how this is going to affect servers like Blue Flag and other dynamic missions (which are already wildly unrealistic if we are going to play the realism card which people like to play). We are talking about a Harrier here, so there are still other factors contributing to the success of its mission, starting with CAP for example, which has zero to do with this problem.

[Rlaxoxo]

lol ...

 

Why are you not bitching about F-15, Su-25, Su-27 ... etc ... then?

[dimitrischal]

lol ...

 

Why are you not bitching about F-15, Su-25, Su-27 ... etc ... then?

 

Because they are FC3? You need a crash course in full fidelity modules vs FC3?

[Rlaxoxo]

Because they are FC3? You need a crash course in full fidelity modules vs FC3?

 

Are you trolling or ignoring what I said on purpose?

He is complaining about 4-10 min period of time where you don't do anything from a balance point of view and how it's gonna ruin multiplayer ...

 

There's shit ton of FCS planes that don't require them to align their systems.

So there's no point in continuing this useless argument

Edited August 8, 2018 by Rlaxoxo

[dimitrischal]

Are you trolling or ignoring what I said on purpose?

He is complaining about 4-10 min period of time where you don't do anything from a balance point of view and how it's gonna ruin multiplayer ...

 

There's shit ton of FCS planes that don't require them to align their systems.

So there's no point in continuing this useless argument

 

They don't have anything simulated to align in the first place? They are FC3.

That doesn't mean that planes that have systems to be aligned should be insta-aligned because somebody is bored and wants to play airquake in a full realism server.

If on your style of MP sitting around for 4-10 minutes waiting means nothing for me it means something and i bet for a lot of other people. We might as well have instacool mavericks and 0 cep jdams while we're at it.

[MrDieing]

There is no such thing as full realism on airquake or DCS in general. It does its best to come close and it does. But I agree on what has been said, pretty pointless argument. Damned if they do, damned if they don't ;)

[QuiGon]

There is no such thing as full realism on airquake or DCS in general. It does its best to come close and it does. But I agree on what has been said, pretty pointless argument. Damned if they do, damned if they don't ;)

It does not do its best to come close to realism if options get implemented that deliberatly reduce realism!

Again, what is your problem with the implementation of an option for server admins or mission makers to enforce INS alignment for all players just like there is for the Mirage?! If you don't like it, don't use it, but some people prefer realistic environments, even in MP. I want to be able to host a server where such cheats are not allowed to allow for realistic and fair gameplay. As I said before, there are missions where it matters how quick you can reach the target area at mission start to gain an advantage. As a server host I want to be able to enforce fair gameplay for everyone. I don't use FC3 modules in my missions, so I don't care about them.

Again: This enforcement option is implemented for the Mirage. So why not for the Harrier too?

Edited August 8, 2018 by QuiGon

[NaCH]

Quigon, agree. If should be possible for the mission maker to enforce real alignment and not instant.

[Pikey]

There should be parity and consistency, the actual end reasons are less convincing because i beleive it only relates to the blue flag server in this case.

[Buckeye]

How long do the INS systems in the FC3 aircraft take to align? How long are their start up processes in general?

 

 

 

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