fixed Weight of LAU-131 on TER is way off

[AMVI_Rider]

While reviewing DCSMP data I ended up in something odd which i noted years ago, but then forgot to report.

Given real world data:

 

LAU-131 = 68lbs

MK151HE + MK66 = 9.3 + 13.6 lbs

TER-9/A = 95 lbs

 

The total weight for a single launcher (1 x LAU-131 + 7 x rockets) should be 229 lbs and the Mission Editor reports 220 which is quite similar.

 

The complete TER weight should be 1xTER+ 3 x LAU-131 + 21 x rockets = 780lbs

 

In Mission Editor I see a weight of 1548 lbs, roughly the double of the expected value.

 

UPDATE: looking in the db_weapons_data.lua I see that the single launcher is defined as:

 

		{
			CLSID	=	"{69926055-0DA8-4530-9F2F-C86B157EA9F6}",
			Picture	=	"LAU131.png",
			Cx_pil	=	0.00146484375,
			displayName	=	_("LAU-131 - 7 2.75' rockets M151 (HE)"),
			Count	=	7,
			Elements	=	RocketContainer("LAU-131"),
			Weight	=	100,
			wsTypeOfWeapon	=	{4,	7,	33,	147},
			attribute	=	{4,	7,	32,	117},
		},

 

So the weight is obviously expressed in kg. But if you look at the TER:

 

			{
			CLSID	=	"LAU_131x3_HYDRA_70_M151",
			Picture	=	"LAU131.png",
			Cx_pil	=	0.00244140625,
			displayName	=	_("LAU-131*3 - 7 2.75' rockets M151 (HE)"),
			wsTypeOfWeapon	=	{4,	7,	33,	147},
			Count	=	21,
			Weight	=	702,
			attribute	=	{4,	7,	32,	136},
			Elements	=	RocketContainer("BRU-42_LS_(LAU-131)"),
		},

It is obviously in lbs ...

It should be pretty easy to fix!

Edited August 10, 2018 by AMVI_Rider

[mvsgas]

The weapons file 2003-2004, page 9-7 shows the Lau-131 at 97 lbs empty and the Lau-68 at 86lbs. Also not sure which LAU-131 we have in DCS ( there are several versions)

page 9-35 TER-9 at 93lbs and TER-9/A at 105lbs (not sure which si in DCS)

So I think we need to find the actual version and weight first

Edited August 10, 2018 by mvsgas

[AMVI_Rider]

The weapons file 2003-2004, page 9-7 shows the Lau-131 at 97 lbs empty and the Lau-68 at 86lbs. Also not sure which LAU-131 we have in DCS ( there are several versions)

page 9-35 TER-9 at 93lbs and TER-9/A at 105lbs (not sure which si in DCS)

So I think we need to find the actual version and weight first

 

From the document you cited I see that the TER-9/A is 93 lbs. The TER-9/A MOD is 105 lbs, but it is also reported to be used with the F-16 only as it is designed for high speed.

 

The TO1A-10A-1-1 reports 95 for the 9/A. I can live pretty well with 2 lbs of difference :smilewink:

The problem I'm trying to bring to the attention is almost three orders of magnitude larger.

Edited August 10, 2018 by AMVI_Rider

[mvsgas]

Ok, but what version of the LAU-131 we have in DCS and what is the weight for each version in RL? If we don't have all the information, which is wrong and what is the right weight and for what version?

 

You might also want to check you link, rules have change and not sure if that applies.

[AMVI_Rider]

Thanks about the link ... I removed just in case.

 

About the 131, frankly speaking, I have no data on how many versions are there. If you do and you can share I think everybody will be happy.

 

Personally speaking, I can stay with the simplification of the ballpark value as far as it is reasonable.

[Gruw]

It should be pretty easy to fix!

 

 

Hey mate, I hope the devs will face the issue asap!

[mvsgas]

To be honest, the problem with some of this weapons is that there are many variants and many manufactures. Some times some weapons where built initially by one company, those companies where bought by some one else of went out of business, then the need arise for more pods or upgrades....in the end it can be quite convoluted.

 

For example, one of the first links on Google for a LAU-131 is for a LAU-131/A By Arnold Defense.

This mentions National Stock Number (NSN)1340-01-230-5317-H149.

You look that is WebFlISS, that stuck number shows a weight of 700lbs, but is that with shipping container? My point is is hard to know the actual numbers by looking on the web.

 

Any USAF AMMO guys out there? (IYAAYAS, just me pandering to AMMO people)...or Weapons guys.

 

Also, in DCS, do you know if the .lua is adding the pylon weight? I don't know

Edited August 10, 2018 by mvsgas

[Ramsay]

So I think we need to find the actual version and weight first

Not really, the weight is double what would be expected, so is too large to argue about variants, ED need to check their figures and confirm they are as intended.

The problem I'm trying to bring to the attention is almost three orders of magnitude larger.

The problem is worth repeating, but it's not "almost three orders of magnitude" i.e. 10x10x10 = 1000 times too heavy.

 

Like Rider, I can't make sense of how ED reached their 1548 lb weight for a TER BRU-42/A and 3x LAU-68D/A loaded with 2.75-inch (M151, Mk 66, M427).

 

~127 + (3x 246) lb = ~865 lb

 

but if some one was to slip up and use the number of rockets in each pod (7), rather than number of pods (3), and DCS's loaded pod weight (220lb), it gets close

 

7x 220 lb = 1540 lb

 

As it's a long standing issue, I'm not sure why it hasn't been addressed. Hopefully it might be addressed while ED are working on the Hornet.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Ramsay
Update with weight for BRU-42/A TER

[mvsgas]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2718186

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=204229

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=123994

[AMVI_Rider]

The problem is worth repeating, but it's not "almost three orders of magnitude" i.e. 10x10x10 = 1000 times too heavy.

 

I was referring to the acceptable error on the TER weight evaluation: 2 lbs vs 800 lbs.

(sorry I'm on the mobile and I can't report exact values)

 

 

Given the links is obvious that I already reported (and I forgot about that).

Edited August 10, 2018 by AMVI_Rider

[Ramsay]

My point is is hard to know the actual numbers by looking on the web.

While google/wiki is a usefull point of reference, my primary source for pods like the LAU-68, 2.75-inch (M151, Mk 66, M427), Full with/without fairings, Empty weight, etc are Performance Charts, Aircraft Manuals, etc. for load/drag.

 

I forget when I went into some detail, perhaps for a F-5E bug report but it's pointless to repeat lists of references if it's a low priority or not going to be acted on. A thread like this that 'bumps' a long standing issue, is perhaps the best, just to remind ED people care.

 

If the weight includes hidden stat's for wing pylons, IIRC it effects other module like the Harrier, etc. that use the same TER mounts, etc. as defined in DCS's .lua (that's how I first became aware of the issue).

 

Note: I haven't looked at the .lua's to debug the issue, as being aware of the issue was sufficient for mission design.

[Ramsay]

... the weight is obviously expressed in kg. But if you look at the TER:

 

Weight	=	702,

It is obviously in lbs ...

No, it looks like a mix of kg's and lb weights

 

702 = 660 + 42 = 660 lb + 42 kg

 

660 lb / 3 = 220 lb LAU-68

42 kg = 92 lb TER

 

I'd guess that ED's original intended weight was

 

• 300kg + 42kg = 342 kg = 752 lb

 

but there are better public sources for the weights now, than in 2011

 

It should be pretty easy to fix!

Perfect ...

 

702 kg x 2.2 lb/kg = 1545 lb

 

nice debug :thumbup:

Edited August 10, 2018 by Ramsay
Add guess at how 702 kg was derived

[AMVI_Rider]

Modding is possible but it will break the Integrity check.

Last contribution I can give is the attached xlsx file with all the values I was able to retrieve from RL docs and the calculation to generate data for the lua file.

Marked in yellow are some not extremely reliable sources.

A10C Rockets Calc 1.0.zip

[Blech]

Hi,

 

I opened a ticket regarding to your thread

 

( My old thread (under # 9 of your thread) has no picture anymore - some times ago I have to delete older pictures - the Upload Limit was full )

[AMVI_Rider]

Problem has been addressed in the latest openbeta.

Thank you ED :thumbup: