Invisible infantry

[Weta43]

There's been a lot of call for ED to put some infantry into LOBS.

Given the current graphic engine & animation capabilities we're probably not going to be setting hundreds of units on the map, but some of the models used for IGLA / Stinger armed with small-arms/RPGs (maybe a mortar ?) might be useful to position around the area of engagement to make life more interesting/immersive for the Ka-50 pilot (the sound of small-arms rounds rattling against the chopper & every so often bullet marks appearing on the windshield or hitting something vulnerable & causing a failure without downing the aircraft), but I can imagine spending a reasonable amount of time setting up small arms fire & RPGs only to have the first bit of armour to come in range turn each of them into a tower of smoke with succesive shots (especially if there's an AWACS about - you'll have them getting taken out from miles away & whole parts of town being destroyed as tanks try to shoot through buildings).

Without movement to simulate the units taking cover they're just too vulnerable & visible to the AI armour & I thought that a way around this might be to have either the ability to toggle infanty's visibility off to other ground based AI units (their 'detectability' to other ground based AI - while leaving them actually visible & also detectable by airborne units), or permanently set it at some tens of metres (< 100?) unless they have specifically been set as a target for the attacking unit.

Then you could turn down their 'hit points' for those units to something more like a human than a tank (& take off the flames when they die ???).

They could then attack armour & airborne units at maximum range & in, & persist on the battlefield for more than a couple of minutes (till somethhing got close enough to 'find' them), but if in the ME you consider there's an observer there to identify them, you can set them as a target for someone & they'll be fair game.

 

Does this seem a good idea to you ?

[GGTharos]

I deifnitely thing they should not be individually detectable by aircraft, player or ortherwise.. until you come down to read the signs on the roads. Or if you're a heli and they're out in the open, or close by.

[VMFA-Blaze]

Weta: I'm in total agreement with everything that you mentioned.. I'm sure that we would all like to see this happen in Black Shark..

 

Even if its on a small scale this would be cool...

 

 

~S~

 

Blaze

[Weta43]

I'd say have them detectable if they're set as a target in the mission editor - the assumption then is that you've got someone designating them - If not, then they shouldn't be seen them till they're stumbled over.

[Witchking]

personally....I would be satisfied in seeing like 4 polygon infantry armies of 10 or so moving from building to building with a 2 poly Ak47 or so. I think it is worth the lack of graphics to get the immersion right. :)

[EscCtrl]

personally....I would be satisfied in seeing like 4 polygon infantry armies of 10 or so moving from building to building with a 2 poly Ak47 or so. I think it is worth the lack of graphics to get the immersion right. :)

 

So you want to see cubes running around shooting each other with lines?

[golfsierra2]

There's been a lot of call for ED to put some infantry into LOBS.

Given the current graphic engine & animation capabilities we're probably not going to be setting hundreds of units on the map, but some of the models used for IGLA / Stinger armed with small-arms/RPGs (maybe a mortar ?) might be useful to position around the area of engagement to make life more interesting/immersive for the Ka-50 pilot (the sound of small-arms rounds rattling against the chopper & every so often bullet marks appearing on the windshield or hitting something vulnerable & causing a failure without downing the aircraft), but I can imagine spending a reasonable amount of time setting up small arms fire & RPGs only to have the first bit of armour to come in range turn each of them into a tower of smoke with succesive shots (especially if there's an AWACS about - you'll have them getting taken out from miles away & whole parts of town being destroyed as tanks try to shoot through buildings).

Without movement to simulate the units taking cover they're just too vulnerable & visible to the AI armour & I thought that a way around this might be to have either the ability to toggle infanty's visibility off to other ground based AI units (their 'detectability' to other ground based AI - while leaving them actually visible & also detectable by airborne units), or permanently set it at some tens of metres (< 100?) unless they have specifically been set as a target for the attacking unit.

Then you could turn down their 'hit points' for those units to something more like a human than a tank (& take off the flames when they die ???).

They could then attack armour & airborne units at maximum range & in, & persist on the battlefield for more than a couple of minutes (till somethhing got close enough to 'find' them), but if in the ME you consider there's an observer there to identify them, you can set them as a target for someone & they'll be fair game.

 

Does this seem a good idea to you ?

 

 

Considering the amount of data to processed here for all the interactive entities, this would bring the fastest machine to a slide show:

Each gunner / Igla shooter has to be considered as a single entity, which means that it has to be calculated

- is he in visual range to an aircraft

- is his gun in range to that aircraft

- is he hitting the aircraft (damage model)

- can the shooter be seen by the pilot

- if the pilot fires his weapons, will the shooter be hit ? Damage model ?

 

Imagine a mission with

 

4 Su25T flown by human pilots (4 entities)

8 fighter flown by AI pilots (8 entities)

20 Ground troops (5 Igla shooter, 15 soldiers with small arms)

 

makes a total of 32 entities of which the possible interactions concerning aquisition (in visual or radar range or not) and the weapon effects (hit or no hit, damage model) has to be calculated.....

 

Add some radar sites and ships to it, and you will be below 10 FPS...

[EscCtrl]

Considering the amount of data to processed here for all the interactive entities, this would bring the fastest machine to a slide show:

Each gunner / Igla shooter has to be considered as a single entity, which means that it has to be calculated

- is he in visual range to an aircraft

- is his gun in range to that aircraft

- is he hitting the aircraft (damage model)

- can the shooter be seen by the pilot

- if the pilot fires his weapons, will the shooter be hit ? Damage model ?

 

Imagine a mission with

 

4 Su25T flown by human pilots (4 entities)

8 fighter flown by AI pilots (8 entities)

20 Ground troops (5 Igla shooter, 15 soldiers with small arms)

 

makes a total of 32 entities of which the possible interactions concerning aquisition (in visual or radar range or not) and the weapon effects (hit or no hit, damage model) has to be calculated.....

 

Add some radar sites and ships to it, and you will be below 10 FPS...

 

They manage battles of thousand in games like Rome Total War, there must be some way round it - I know it might not be as complex but then does it need to be. Are the infantry individually controlled in RTW, anyone know?

[Weta43]

- is he in visual range to an aircraft

- is his gun in range to that aircraft

- is he hitting the aircraft (damage model)

- can the shooter be seen by the pilot

- if the pilot fires his weapons, will the shooter be hit ? Damage model ?

.... would bring the fastest machine to a slide show

 

 

Actually - It's all calculations that are already done in the sim - that's why if you put an AWAC in your cannon will shoot over the horizon at something in range, but not at something on the other side of the map.

Every cycle of the game it already works out if everything else in the game can be seen, is within range etc. That's why it gets so slow when you pile in the units & why I said that you couldn't have a hundred infantry running around.

All this would be doing is changing the distance that AI will fire on the unit. They all 'know' where everything is already. - & removing all the LOD models but the last 2

It's true that these infantry would take up as much CPU time as any other unit - but no more than any other.

So - what ever you consider the CPU driven maximum unit limit on your missions (where FPS is rubbish even in F10) that will stay the same (or actually better as these would have Zero load on the GPU under most LODs) - just some will be infantry not an APC or IFV (which is what I presently use to get some rounds in the air)

 

OK – just to see what sort of ground unit load LO could take without coming to a halt I set up:

30 x BTR-70

30 x M-2

1 x CVN

2 x Oliver Perry

1 x Admiral Kuz

2 x Albatross

2 x AWAC (1 x red, 1 x blue )

4 x Su-25T

4 x F14

1 x Patriot site

1 x S300PS site

I put the bigger numbers into objects that don’t have to have radar calcs done for them, & left most of them out of direct sight (as infantry would have zero LOD at most ranges)..

All arranged around the Crimean peninsular, with only, but all of the 30 x BTR-70 in view, flying over a village, but not looking at a city

18 FPS on my ‘getting old’ computer.

 

As far as I can see that leaves a bit of room for substituting an M-2 or BTR-70 for a foot-soldier or two.

[Gaizokubanou]

In distance couldn't they just use sprites to represent infantries?

[Weta43]

I think I'd rather they were completely invisible till 0.5 - 1.5 km out. Then nothing has to be drawn at all, & they stand a chance of surviving.

[Witchking]

So you want to see cubes running around shooting each other with lines?

 

EXACTLY! :thumbup:

[Willy p.]

I would just like to see the stinger teams and avenger crews launch at the right distance. And that the SA-7/8 go to being chase weapons, as they are in real life. They do not shoot head on.