R-73 on the Ka-50

[504smudge]

Uploads as proof 1 taken from an MOD (British ministry of defence)published book and 1 from Modern Warfare Aircraft encyclopaedia

 

 

[GGTharos]

Heh. Okay, so the mock up R-73's that were shown are listed here, but you don't have a pic of the Ka-50 carrying them.

I guess this needs to be reiterated: There's no operational carriage of heaters on Russian helos, nor is it intended. This came from a person who's within the Russian army.

[504smudge]

Ка-50-2 может нести вооружение общим весом до 2,5 тонн. Базовый комплект вооружения включает в себя ПТУРы, ракеты "Воздух-Воздух", пушку и НУРСы.

В состав вооружения Ка-50-2 могут входить:

- 12 сверхзвуковых противотанковых управляемых ракет "Вихрь" с лазерным наведением или 16 ПТУР с электронно-оптическим наведением;

- 4 ракеты "Воздух-Воздух" типа "Стингер";

- скорострельная 30-мм автоматическая пушка 2А42 с высокой начальной скоростью снаряда, запас снарядов - 240 бронебойных и 230 фугасно-зажигательных, скорострельность регулируется от 350 до 600 в/мин;

- 80-мм кассеты НУРС.

 

 

http://www.airforce.ru/aircraft/kamov/ka-50-2/ka-50-2.htm

 

taken from a russian airforce site

 

a military sales site

 

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ka50/

 

A combination of various armaments to a maximum weapon load of two tons can be selected according to the mission, including anti-tank missiles, unguided aerial rockets of different calibres, air-to-air missiles, guns, bombs and other weapons.

 

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-11.htm

 

The R-73 short-range, close-combat standardized missile was developed in the Vympel Machine Building Design Bureau, and became operational in 1984. The R-73 is included in the weapon complex of MiG-23MLD, MiG-29 and Su-27 fighters and their modifications and also of Mi-24, Mi-28 and Ka-50 helicopters. It also can be employed in flying craft which do not have sophisticated aiming systems.

[EvilBivol-1]

I don't want to discourage anyone from looking for evidence. If you're able to find something substantial, it may be useful. But understand that it would have to be more reliable and convincing than the official documentation and expert advice available for ED. I sincerely wish you good luck, as I too would like to see an A2A missile properly modeled on the Ka-50. :)

[Avimimus]

I don't want to discourage anyone from looking for evidence. If you're able to find something substantial, it may be useful. But understand that it would have to be more reliable and convincing than the official documentation and expert advice available for ED. I sincerely wish you good luck, as I too would like to see an A2A missile properly modeled on the Ka-50. :)

 

I think we need all the luck we can get...

 

After all we need:

1. A picture of a missile leaving the launch rail of a Ka-50

2. Statements from a senior RuAF personnel expressing their imminent desire to give helicopters AAMs as part of the force doctrine

 

(504)smudge,

 

Thank you for the research. I find the references to the four round optically guided anti-tank missiles especially interesting.

 

I do cringe somewhat at some of the material: The first scan states 680 excess rounds for the UPK-23-250, the second scan states incorrect information regarding the anti-tank missiles.

 

ww.FAS.org is notoriously out of date so far as Warsaw pact systems go (info on the Vikhr hasn't changed since the wall fell...) still the claim that the R-73 can be deployed without complex avionics on the launch platform is very believable.

 

Now the second scan appears to show less missiles under the wing. Is this an normal APU-6 with most of the missiles removed?

 

britgliderpilot,

 

The R-73 is faster to launch, fire and forget, has a more powerful warhead (assuming that only the fragmentation ring is counted for the 9A1472) and much, much greater maneuverability. So it is clearly preferable.

 

Giving up a rocket armament for a pair of AAMs might not be important if the role of the helicopter was command or observation.

 

As for Mil and Kamov, they may not "recognize a need" but the at least hope that there is a market.

 

http://www.airwar.ru states that the Igla-V when launched from a helicopter has a range of 5km against a slow moving target. Against an F-4 it is believed to have a pk of 0.48 in a head on and 0.33 in trail. I find the use of such missiles somewhat questionable. I would still like the object in this photograph identified: http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ka50/ka506.html

 

I am relatively convinced at this point that the Ka-50 is not currently equiped with dedicated AAMs (although this may be planned and may eventually be the case). However, given the claims for the R-73's simplicity, ability to launch from low speed and the repeated appearance in literature and mock ups we should assume that the Ka-50 has the ability to carry the missile.

 

So the question is: Should ED model the possible or the probable?

Personally, I am happy to leave the question to ED.

[Pilotasso]

If I cared for the helicopter in BS I would like the R-73 missile out. IF theres human oponents on the other side I can imagine what it will represent a missile like this in helo VS helo AA combat. Spare those guys from lots of frustration and keep the archer out. Its also useless against fighters.

[D-Scythe]

So the question is: Should ED model the possible or the probable?

Personally, I am happy to leave the question to ED.

 

Although I'd imagine the choice is squarely ED's, I definitely think it would be appreciated by some LOBS customers to have the option to equip their Ka-50s with some sort of AAM.

[192nd_Erdem]

Archer is useless against fighters indeed.

[GGTharos]

Yes, it is - since you need to see those fighters before they see -you- and that's less than likely.

 

Pilotasso, Vikhr achieves the same thing, and can't be decoyed as easily in helo v helo. An archer would be a total flare-eater against a detected launch ;)

[Pilotasso]

Well I have missed tanks before with the vikhr due to its unnusual spiral trajectory. many of those missiles I shoot end up impacting nearby without efect. I can imagine that a helicopter would be a litle harder, besides a vikhr has a fraction of the range of an R-73. As you said you have restricted vision outside, you would be unlikely to see it coming either.

[Avimimus]

The official Kamov page states that the Ka-50 has six hardpoints: http://www.kamov.ru/market/paghan/tka-50wr.html

 

Where did the other two go? Why does the page state that the Ka-50 can carry the Igla and that it is capable of attack low speed air targets?

 

I personally can't see a reason to equip the Igla but the Ka-50 appears to have auxiliary hardpoints for just this purpose...why I don't know.

[ALDEGA]

Why does the page state that the Ka-50 can carry the Igla and that it is capable of attack low speed air targets?

Well, slow flying airborne targets can be engaged with Vikhr missiles, right?

 

According to Kamov's site, it can carry 4 Igla-B. Where would they go?

[504smudge]

i believe the iglas go on the wing tips from what iv seen in documents

[Maulkin]

If you think you stand a chance against a fast-mover in a helicopter . . . . think again ;)

 

Helicopters fly NOE. Visibility from a Ka50 cabin is poor. You look down for targets, not up. You have no radar, you don't even have an RWR.

 

You'd just have absolutely no idea the fast-mover was there. None.

 

I have spoken with RL fighter pilots and much to my surprise, they told me that it was not a good idea to engage a assault helicopter because you only had one chance to engage the helicopter, which would be a bad target due to the fact it would be close to the ground making it difficult to get a good radar lock, and does not generate alot of heat (compared to another jet) so an IR lock would not be optimal. If you attacked and missed then you would be giving that helicopter, which can turn on a dime, your six which would make a great target for a heatseeker against the sky.

[rogue_blade]

I have spoken with RL fighter pilots and much to my surprise, they told me that it was not a good idea to engage a assault helicopter because you only had one chance to engage the helicopter, which would be a bad target due to the fact it would be close to the ground making it difficult to get a good radar lock, and does not generate alot of heat (compared to another jet) so an IR lock would not be optimal. If you attacked and missed then you would be giving that helicopter, which can turn on a dime, your six which would make a great target for a heatseeker against the sky.

 

exactly as i thought.

to britgliderpilot -- if the ka50r can carry the r73 as the cobra and apache can carry a sidewinder they obviously Must have some form of a2a detection/targeting system. probably in their helmet too. I can imagine a ka50 easily taking out an a10 that has failed to notice it. of course in RL a ka50 would never be in an area where an a10 is performing CAS but i'm talking multi-player here

[britgliderpilot]

The official Kamov page states that the Ka-50 has six hardpoints: http://www.kamov.ru/market/paghan/tka-50wr.html

 

Where did the other two go? Why does the page state that the Ka-50 can carry the Igla and that it is capable of attack low speed air targets?

 

I personally can't see a reason to equip the Igla but the Ka-50 appears to have auxiliary hardpoints for just this purpose...why I don't know.

 

I genuinely have no idea where these mysterious 2 extra hardpoints are supposed to be . . . .

 

 

On the other hand, if the "official" Kamov page doesn't give the R-73 as armament, that answers the question of the thread . . . . the Igla question may be another matter but I have to assume that ED's information is accurate.

[britgliderpilot]

exactly as i thought.

to britgliderpilot -- if the ka50r can carry the r73 as the cobra and apache can carry a sidewinder they obviously Must have some form of a2a detection/targeting system. probably in their helmet too. I can imagine a ka50 easily taking out an a10 that has failed to notice it. of course in RL a ka50 would never be in an area where an a10 is performing CAS but i'm talking multi-player here

 

If you are in a situation where an A-10 has failed to notice you, it's just as easy to take it out with Vikhr as with R-73 - as countless virtual Su25T drivers will attest ;)

 

If it DOES see you . . . . then you're dead.

 

 

- rogue_blade

 

The fast-mover will at least get one pass without warning on an attack helicopter - with guns if nothing else.

 

The idea of an attack helicopter engaging the fast-mover first remains extremely improbable.

[rogue_blade]

If you are in a situation where an A-10 has failed to notice you, it's just as easy to take it out with Vikhr as with R-73 - as countless virtual Su25T drivers will attest ;)

 

If it DOES see you . . . . then you're dead.

 

 

- rogue_blade

 

The fast-mover will at least get one pass without warning on an attack helicopter - with guns if nothing else.

 

The idea of an attack helicopter engaging the fast-mover first remains extremely improbable.

 

i agree its extremely improbable but your first post was more along the lines of extremely impossible which is why i interjected :smilewink:

[Avimimus]

The fast-mover will at least get one pass without warning on an attack helicopter - with guns if nothing else.

 

The idea of an attack helicopter engaging the fast-mover first remains extremely improbable.

 

Mind you if the Kamov pilot flies low, maneuvers or passes through cover a good bead with the cannon could be easily be denied. I am sure we will find the Ka-50 with a good pilot a bit more of a challenge then the current AI helicopters...

 

What probability would you but to a helicopter getting first shot and making a kill using only unguided rockets (no missile or cannons)? I was arrogant the other day and had an Ah-1 creep up behind me and take out my Su-25 using hydras...

[GGTharos]

And the Fighter can indefinitely deny the Ka-50 return fire, no matter what the Ka-50 is packing. Ask Mustang ;)

[TheProphet]

What if someone would send an email to Kamov.ru asking if the Ka-50 can use and fire the R-73, and if the R-73 is used operationally on the Ka-50? (Excuse me if it was made up before)

[GGTharos]

ED already has information regarding this from military personnel, IIRC.

[Fjordmonkey]

Personally, I wouldn't want to waste hardpoints or weapon-capabilities through carrying the R-73 on a KA-50. I'm fairly sure that this has been mentioned by others in this thread; it doesn't make any sort of tactical sense for a helo to carry AAM's since you'd want to use other aircrafts to take them out. Why take a knife to a gunfight?

 

Besides, it's not very intelligent warmaking flying a chopper into an area without sufficient support from friendly fast-movers or when you've got air superiority. True, CAS/BAI-aircraft could be a problem, but that's why you've got escorts or support of some sort. One can, though, argue that it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. The problem with that arguement is that especially on a chopper, your range is limited by among other things the amount of ordnance you fly with. I would think that you'd want to bring enough kaboomery to get the specific job done, and trust your escort/high cover for anything else.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

What if someone would send an email to Kamov.ru asking if the Ka-50 can use and fire the R-73, and if the R-73 is used operationally on the Ka-50? (Excuse me if it was made up before)

On their own site (http://www.kamov.ru) they list Ka-50 capable of carrying four (4) Igla-B air to air missiles.

 

Description of the helicopters weapons clearly talks about Air to Air missiles capabilities. Here’s the link:

 

http://www.kamov.ru/market/paghan/tka-50wr.html

[EvilBivol-1]

They also say its avionics suit includes IR sensors, which is clearly false.

 

Once again, ED is not making a simulation based on marketing brochures, which is what you are seeing on that website. Unless you have something that can beat official documentation and SME advice, all you can hope for is that ED recieves better information about how an A2A missile would be employed or they decide to best guess it for gameplay value, something they have been reluctant to do thus far.