Helo tactics

[VMFA117_Poko]

I was looking for infos about tactics using by helo crews in combat. This is what I find on military.com:

 

1. Alter any takeoff and landing directions from known or predictable helipads.

 

2. Never fly a predictable or constant schedule, route, course, altitude, "race-track" or other any other identifiable or easily predictable flight path. That includes constant hovering positions, including "nap-of-the-earth" flight.

 

3. Never follow a predictable altitude or route, including rivers, canyons, streets or roads, for any length of time.

 

4. Evade any population centers, such as a town or village.

 

5. If these rules must be compromised, arrange for effective fighter cover and rescue capability.

 

6. In multi-ship missions, allow at least 500 meters between aircraft, so as to allow all aircraft room to maneuver without risking collision or restriction of defensive gunnery. That includes the basic airmanship of always turning, so as to view a clear spot, whether climbing, descending or staying level.

Vary any insertion or extraction tactics as well as those of support aircraft and their stand-off defensive coverage.

 

7. Be aware that helicopters have no significant surprise element, given their speed and noise. Thus, pilots must be aware that going into an unprepared LZ is extremely dangerous. This is especially true if the LZ presents itself as a predictable insertion point, particularly if a "pathfinder" is not used. One landmine can destroy a helicopter and its mission.

 

8. Be certain during night operations that a minimum of light from the ground - as simple as a trash-fire barrel - will illuminate the rotor blades, marking the helicopter as an easy target.

 

9. Never fly a mission without overwhelming firepower in immediate reserve, whether artillery or air cover. That includes rescue capability.

 

(...) The modern helicopter pilot finds more demand on his/her data management skills than airmanship. The dollar expense of "blade time" additionally detracts from the skill of the pilots, through non-currency and total experience in actual flight.

 

Unfortunately, in a combat zone, the smart pilot must deviate from the "standardization" of the infamous "classroom solution," even as it pertains to safety. Landing into the wind is suicide if an enemy gunner is awaiting just that arrival. Since there are multiple forms of combat scenarios, a simple set of tactics is impossible to devise.

 

(...)

 

The final issue regarding helicopters on the battlefield comes down to an unpleasant premise. The United States may not always be conducting war with a third-world country. It is clear that any competent army armed with sophisticated anti-aircraft weaponry or aviation assets, will quickly drive our fleet of attack and reconnaissance helicopters from the sky, rendering them to a marginal role as a vehicle used for air evacuation and mop-up operations.

 

It remains to be seen whether senior U.S. military leaders have the awareness and moral courage to recognize how endangered military helicopters have become.

 

source

 

May a gunship helicopter idea die soon then?

[- Piloto da Morte -]

DO y know about tatics for any Helo down jets in combat?? Like Ka-50 or apache down the Su-25 or A-10 ??

[VMFA117_Poko]

No, i don't. In fact I know nothing about helo tactics (avatar "Firma Kamov" is just for fun). This is first article which I've found today. Any real helo crewman could share a knowledge about other usefull tactics for group and solo flights here?

[britgliderpilot]

DO y know about tatics for any Helo down jets in combat?? Like Ka-50 or apache down the Su-25 or A-10 ??

 

If you mean tactics by which an attack helicopter can shoot down a jet in air combat . . . no.

 

You're at such a massive disadvantage in that scenario, in every way that matters, that you're best off hiding and hoping a jet never sees you.

 

If you want to give it a go in Black Shark, though, the only resource I've found that covers such an eventuality is the Nicolas Cage film "Firebirds". It's not very factually accurate . . . but hey, what the hell.

 

 

 

Poko - yes, the attack helicopter is a high-risk unit.

 

We've already seen the introduction of UAVs which can deliver one or two strikes more cheaply and with no risk to aircrew . . . and the trend is continuing.

 

A heavy UAV with a load of Hellfires would be a cheaper and safer way to wage war against an advanced enemy. But we're not there yet.

 

For now there's an existing system, with a human at the controls, two sets of eyes to scan (except in the case of the Ka50, of course) and adequate countermeasures in place. So it'll do just fine :)

 

 

Those tactics are very good guidelines, but may or may not be applicable to Black Shark.

 

For example, all the stuff about evading detection is very much dependent on how the mission is built and where all the enemy units are placed. I'm pretty sure ED haven't modelled enemy sympathisers in towns with direct comms links to the enemy!

 

As such, if you take an unusual route to the target you might be guaranteed an unrealistically safe and easy route in.

 

Building good missions for this sim is going to be a real challenge, I look forward to seeing what comes out :)

[VMFA117_Poko]

Those tactics are very good guidelines, but may or may not be applicable to Black Shark.

 

For example, all the stuff about evading detection is very much dependent on how the mission is built and where all the enemy units are placed. I'm pretty sure ED haven't modelled enemy sympathisers in towns with direct comms links to the enemy!

 

As such, if you take an unusual route to the target you might be guaranteed an unrealistically safe and easy route in.

 

Building good missions for this sim is going to be a real challenge, I look forward to seeing what comes out :)

Understand. Things would be different if we could get full dynamic campaign...

[amalahama]

full dynamic campaign...

 

Ahhh!! The magic words :)

 

Regards!!

[Peyoteros]

Well, looks like we might become a UAV gunship pilots very soon ! Keep practicing, cos the way I see it we all fly UAV's daily! Hooah.

 

Well, the only tactics I could share about flying gunships is from my own experience playing on line, talking about (ARMA, BF2)

Hovering looks nice in the videos but in the gaming world it's suicide, unless you alone on the map, so avoid being still as You become an easy target even for non guided weapons, stay low, keep the track of the ground objects as you fly which you may have to use as cover any moment, try to imagine what you do next if you are being engaged next moment! Fast and low flyby may help you to spot the enemy location, memorize it, mark it on the map, look for the safest approach which provides most of cover, pop up, hit with no mercy, dive'n'run ... play the attack in your head, try to imagine all possible outcomes, and what will you do in certain situations, so when some of imagined situations comes, you do something instead of thinking what to do. Remember the most easiest way is usually the most dangerous one! Don't be an easy target...

Combat experience comes with hours and amount of situations involved.

Wish You all clear blue sky and golden sandy beaches + cold beer :smilewink:

 

Hope wasn't totally useless.

Respectfully

 

Your brother in arms

[CAT_101st]

I am sure that you can add a trigger that will inform the enamy of your location. Saying you get too close to a town/city and are spoted. Or a watch out on a hill. So many options with triggers.

[Peyoteros]

I am sure that you can add a trigger that will inform the enamy of your location. Saying you get too close to a town/city and are spoted. Or a watch out on a hill. So many options with triggers.

 

Triggers are GO in BS, awesome! and as far as I know thats what triggers do, behold!

This respond was triggered by CAT_101st :smilewink:

:pilotfly:

[CAT_101st]

:thumbup:

[britgliderpilot]

I am sure that you can add a trigger that will inform the enamy of your location. Saying you get too close to a town/city and are spoted. Or a watch out on a hill. So many options with triggers.

 

Very good point!

 

Not sure if there's a "make AI more aware of your presence" option for the triggers . . . but an imaginative mission builder could almost certainly do something clever with them . . .

[GGTharos]

Or, you know, a trigger to suddenly spawn a ZSU unit in the city ... 'cause someone has to push it out of the garage ... :D

[CAT_101st]

F-18 aleart takeoff :bored:

[GGTharos]

Yep, you could build GAI triggers.

[CAT_101st]

I have a question. How hard is it to make trigers? Do I have to wright out a script like in ArmA or is it simple like in Janes F18 (given all options to select from)?

[GGTharos]

Triggers aren't really finished right now, but I'd say closer to JF-18. Actually not quite as complex as JF-18, but the idea is to continue making them more and more versatile with each iteration of the DCS engine. So what you get in Black Shark is something that will be improved upon.

[CAT_101st]

thats great to hear. I stoped making missions in Arma due to the scripting. I culd spend a month making 1 mission.

 

Some tactics

 

http://www.vampiresofwar.com/forum/uploads/CAT/Areas%20routes%20positions.JPG

 

http://www.vampiresofwar.com/forum/uploads/CAT/attack%20units%20flight.JPG

 

http://www.vampiresofwar.com/forum/uploads/CAT/maneuver.JPG

 

http://www.vampiresofwar.com/forum/uploads/CAT/Low%20and%20slow-01.JPG

 

1st person to tell me where I got this wins a thumbs up.

[GGTharos]

The scripting I think is very nice, but sometimes it might be too much ... and other times, too little.

The question is ... just how dynamic do you want to make that scenario? :) If you want to make it -really- dynamic, you need to start looking into scripting.

[GreyStork]

Doppler misconception

 

http://www.vampiresofwar.com/forum/uploads/CAT/Low%20and%20slow-01.JPG

 

That one is a bit misleading, I think. It doesn't take into consideration that big Doppler generator over your head. Hovering isn't necessarily going to increase your chances of avoiding detection. If you're close enough to get a visual (Shkval) fix on a radar, hovering is only going to make a targeting radar's job easier.

[CAT_101st]

just keep in mind this manual was ment for a diffrent chopper not the KA50 not to metion that the book is over 10 years old.

[Mugatu]

Shaw's book mentions that Helos are very difficult tgts (due to the slow speed and maneuverability) and a fighter pilot can end up on the wrong side of 30mm cannon very quickly. Best tactic may be to use bombs. A2A Missiles may also struggle with the doppler affect of the rotor ...

 

UAVs: Same can be said for bombers, fighters etc ... :pilotfly:

 

 

If you mean tactics by which an attack helicopter can shoot down a jet in air combat . . . no.

 

You're at such a massive disadvantage in that scenario, in every way that matters, that you're best off hiding and hoping a jet never sees you.

 

If you want to give it a go in Black Shark, though, the only resource I've found that covers such an eventuality is the Nicolas Cage film "Firebirds". It's not very factually accurate . . . but hey, what the hell.

 

 

 

Poko - yes, the attack helicopter is a high-risk unit.

 

We've already seen the introduction of UAVs which can deliver one or two strikes more cheaply and with no risk to aircrew . . . and the trend is continuing.

 

A heavy UAV with a load of Hellfires would be a cheaper and safer way to wage war against an advanced enemy. But we're not there yet.

 

For now there's an existing system, with a human at the controls, two sets of eyes to scan (except in the case of the Ka50, of course) and adequate countermeasures in place. So it'll do just fine :)

 

 

Those tactics are very good guidelines, but may or may not be applicable to Black Shark.

 

For example, all the stuff about evading detection is very much dependent on how the mission is built and where all the enemy units are placed. I'm pretty sure ED haven't modelled enemy sympathisers in towns with direct comms links to the enemy!

 

As such, if you take an unusual route to the target you might be guaranteed an unrealistically safe and easy route in.

 

Building good missions for this sim is going to be a real challenge, I look forward to seeing what comes out :)

[GGTharos]

AIM-120's have no problems with the rotor. We have pretty good RL evidence of that I'd say.

A jet like an A-10 which is slow might get itself in trouble with a heli, but a fighter ... a little unlikely.

[Mugatu]

AIM-120's have no problems with the rotor. We have pretty good RL evidence of that I'd say.

 

We do, got some refs? As long as the seeker knows it's a helo.

 

 

A jet like an A-10 which is slow might get itself in trouble with a heli, but a fighter ... a little unlikely.

 

Tell Robert Shaw that lol.

[GGTharos]

Black Hawk blue on blue incident? One 120, one 9. Boom.

 

We do, got some refs? As long as the seeker knows it's a helo.

 

He's working with slightly old material. He barely covers missile technology at all.

 

Tell Robert Shaw that lol.

[Pilotasso]

AIM-120's have no problems with the rotor. We have pretty good RL evidence of that I'd say.

A jet like an A-10 which is slow might get itself in trouble with a heli, but a fighter ... a little unlikely.

 

 

An A-10 can still do 700KPH, hardly an easy target for a helo.