Matching Speeds for AAR

[Horns]

I'm trying to air-to-air refuel for the first time in an F-14B, but I can't get the right speed to approach the back of the tanker and remain there long enough to go through the precontract dialog with the tanker's pilot. One major problem that I have is that the tanker speeds up significantly and slows down suddenly.

 

In lieu of a tin foil hat I've attached a Tacview track (and yes, I do already know I suck at this). I have also used the radar to provide real-time data on speed to make sure it wasn't just my untrained eyes. I really hope other people can confirm this behavior does happen.

 

Is this behavior unique to tankers interacting with the F-14? Is there any way to avoid or 'read' the tanker acting this way? Compensating for this is more difficult in the F-14 due to the analog speed and altitude indicators. If anyone can help with any aspect of this I'd be very thankful.

Tacview-20200607-202407-DCS.zip

[FoxTwo]

What mission? Tanker speed should be consistent.

 

 

Looking at the F-14 training mission, I suspect it's broken.

Edited June 8, 2020 by FoxTwo

[Vertigo72]

I found it totally impossible with the built-in training mission. Mind you, Im a noob. I find AAR totally impossible period, but it might be the problem you described as I kept overshooting it and losing it completely.

 

What Im doing now is making my own mission. For starters I use a KC135MPRS. Having a big tanker makes it a *lot* easier to spot and match speeds. I have no problems initiating the precontact. Only then do the problems start lol.

 

Also, enable the status bar cheat at the bottom so you get an accurate airspeed indicator, that greatly helps learning how your throttle impacts speed, as the read out there is instantaneous and very accurate (unlike the useless and unreadable airspeed indicator in the tomcat. What genius decided to put it there?). I found the speed of the tanker does deviate a little from what I set in the mission planner (set it to 430 Kts default, found its really 407) but that might be a TAS vs IAS thing, and its speed is consistent. The failure to actually refuel is entirely due to my shoddy piloting.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Vertigo72

[Horns]

What mission? Tanker speed should be consistent.

 

 

Looking at the F-14 training mission, I suspect it's broken.

It is that mission. I thought I had the same problem in another one that I made but I went back and looked at it again, it wipes a lot of speed off the tanker as soon as the mission starts, but after a few seconds it reaches and holds a consistent speed. Now I see there is an NTTR one, I've only run it a few times but it seems like the speed is consistent in that too.

 

I found it totally impossible with the built-in training mission. Mind you, Im a noob. I find AAR totally impossible period, but it might be the problem you described as I kept overshooting it and losing it completely.

 

What Im doing now is making my own mission. For starters I use a KC135MPRS. Having a big tanker makes it a *lot* easier to spot and match speeds. I have no problems initiating the precontact. Only then do the problems start lol.

 

Also, enable the status bar cheat at the bottom so you get an accurate airspeed indicator, that greatly helps learning how your throttle impacts speed, as the read out there is instantaneous and very accurate (unlike the useless and unreadable airspeed indicator in the tomcat. What genius decided to put it there?). I found the speed of the tanker does deviate a little from what I set in the mission planner (set it to 430 Kts default, found its really 407) but that might be a TAS vs IAS thing, and its speed is consistent. The failure to actually refuel is entirely due to my shoddy piloting.

Glad to know that mission is a problem for others too. Thanks for the idea about the status bar, that would really help. Couldn't agree more about the instrument placements, you'd think they'd put that where a pilot could just glance down rather than moving their head and spending longer heads-down. While we're rearranging the cockpit, same goes for the g-meter!

[Vertigo72]

Not sure if this helps, but it popped up in my recommendations:

 

 

As always, some people make it look so easy :) But Im gonna keep training on big tankers first before I even attempt the S3 again.

[draconus]

I tested Instant Action AAR practice in Caucasus (KC-135MPRS@350KIAS) @latest beta last night and I topped off without any problems.

 

btw: Speed indicator is fine for me - one glance and I know what I need to know. You fly the formation not some exact numbers - head out of the canopy. KC-130 is easiest to learn AAR.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=233889

read the thread!

Edited June 8, 2020 by draconus

[Vertigo72]

Did they change that mission recently? I would have sworn the F14 AAR built-in training mission (or instant action)? was with an S3 tanker, and I found that completely hopeless. But now indeed -at least on the open beta- its a KC135 MPRS and there is no problem with its speed, only my skill set.

 

BTW I did only now notice how much yaw just extending that fuel probe induces. It needs a lot of rudder trimming. Given how close it is to the centerline I have doubts how realistic that is, but hey, what do I know, but it certainly helps if you trim it out.

[draconus]

Did they change that mission recently? I would have sworn the F14 AAR built-in training mission (or instant action)? was with an S3 tanker, and I found that completely hopeless. But now indeed -at least on the open beta- its a KC135 MPRS and there is no problem with its speed, only my skill set.

 

BTW I did only now notice how much yaw just extending that fuel probe induces. It needs a lot of rudder trimming. Given how close it is to the centerline I have doubts how realistic that is, but hey, what do I know, but it certainly helps if you trim it out.

There were always two Instant Action missions with AAR in Caucasus:

- Refueling practice (KC-135MPRS)

- Refuel fight recover (S-3B)

and one in NTTR with KC-130.

 

I personally don't touch rudder in AAR.

[Horns]

I tested Instant Action AAR practice in Caucasus (KC-135MPRS@350KIAS) @latest beta last night and I topped off without any problems.

 

btw: Speed indicator is fine for me - one glance and I know what I need to know. You fly the formation not some exact numbers - head out of the canopy. KC-130 is easiest to learn AAR.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=233889

read the thread!

I owe you all an apology. The mission I was using was a self-modified version, I had thought that I explained that in my first post but now I see I didn't. The only change I made was to delete the second F-14 but that seems to have caused the problems.

 

Sorry for wasting your time. I did see the 104 tutorial (Maverick's always great for these) but I didn't realize there was a thread, thanks for providing another source of info.

 

One last question to anyone who'll answer: do you find either the F/A-18, F-16 and/or the M2K much easier to tank with than the F-14?

[Devil_Lettuce]

Lern to AAR with this one easy trick. Learn to fly formation, trim whatever you're flying to stay stable if you take your hands off the stick ( doesn't have to stay stable for hours just a few long moments, then plug. Until you can fly close formation you cannot AAR.

[Horns]

Lern to AAR with this one easy trick. Learn to fly formation, trim whatever you're flying to stay stable if you take your hands off the stick ( doesn't have to stay stable for hours just a few long moments, then plug. Until you can fly close formation you cannot AAR.

Thanks, good advice. I'll just practice flying formation with the tanker for a while at a time without requesting fuel and see how I go.

[F1GHTS-ON]

One last question to anyone who'll answer: do you find either the F/A-18, F-16 and/or the M2K much easier to tank with than the F-14?

 

 

Like you, I struggle with the AAR.

 

Hornet is the easiest due to the auto trim (modern jets!). When I had more time to play DCS last year, I made a point of doing 5 mins worth of AAR at the end of an evening, just to keep my eye in. Just recently I've had the chance to get back into playing DCS, and guess what, my AAR skills have almost completely faded.......

[Horns]

One last question to anyone who'll answer: do you find either the F/A-18, F-16 and/or the M2K much easier to tank with than the F-14?

 

 

Like you, I struggle with the AAR.

 

Hornet is the easiest due to the auto trim (modern jets!). When I had more time to play DCS last year, I made a point of doing 5 mins worth of AAR at the end of an evening, just to keep my eye in. Just recently I've had the chance to get back into playing DCS, and guess what, my AAR skills have almost completely faded.......

Thanks so much, that’s exactly what I wanted to know. If I don’t do carrier recoveries at least every couple of days I get sloppy, any longer and I wind up needing to do refreshers, I see why AAR would need that regular practice too. Much appreciated :)