What version of the Su-30 is in DCS?

[BlackPixxel]

5 minutes ago, Coxy_99 said:

 

Interesting to see that the missiles are fired 160km shots, Could you imagine the crying. Obviously its newer tech etc but just shows how dumbed down R family is in DCS lol 

 

For the first two shots, a missile indicated by the number "97" is used (R-97?)

 

After this missile is fired at target 1 and 4, it switches to 77-1 (R-77-1), and the range reduces to 80 km, BUT aircraft and target are flying at medium altitudes.

[henshao]

5 hours ago, Coxy_99 said:

 

Interesting to see that the missiles are fired 160km shots, Could you imagine the crying. Obviously its newer tech etc but just shows how dumbed down R family is in DCS lol 

it is tempting to read into it but we're talking about a literal simulation here

[Seaeagle]

On 12/16/2020 at 3:59 PM, BlackPixxel said:

Before launch the missile receives commands. One of these commands is whether it is "missile 1" or "missile 2", so whether it has to listen to radio correction / illumination of time slot 1 or time slot 2. The missile can keep track of the timing because it knows the time diagram. (20 ms radar operation, 30 ms time slot 1, 20 ms radar operation, 30 ms time slot 2 and the cycle repeats)

Yes I guess that could work, but I still think also alternating the frequencywould make more sense.

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Why is it odd to mention the dual target engagement in the manual? It is in the section about the R-27, so it is not wrong to mention its technical capabilities.

Why is it odd to mention a feature that doesn't exist for the aircraft the manual is teaching the pilot to operate?.....and couldn't get unless the entire radar complex is replaced?

 

 

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And about the HUD symbology: In one of the Combat Approved videos (which of course have to be taken with a grain of salt) an engagement in a simulator was shown, and it was said that the cross within the target symbol means that it has been engaged.

Yes fair enough, but I think this needs to be investigated a little further.

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Here is what the Su-27SK manual says about launching more than two R-27:

После схода 2-х ракет с РГС в режиме ОДИН (двух серий в режиме ЧАСТЬ), пущенных по одной цели двумя нажатиями гашетки П, в зависимости от условий пуска, символ ДР может скачком переместиться на меньшую дальность, максимально, примерно, на 0,5 первоначальной дальности. Если осуществлять пуск третьей ракеты с РГС (до достижения первой ракетой цели), то она пойдет на цель без радиокоррекции.

 

The sudden reduction of the permitted launch range mark (DR) could be explained by the aircraft not allowing the following missiles to be launched until the radar has switched to illumination for the first missile or something similar related to reducing the maximum permitted launch range of the following missiles due to the absence of radio correction.

Ok yes that sounds plausible. 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Seaeagle

[Seaeagle]

On 12/16/2020 at 6:37 PM, BlackPixxel said:

Yes, purely hypothetical, but it would certainly work against bombers.

 

The "original" N011, is it just a purely mechanical scanned slotted array, or does it have the electronic scanning in elevation while being purely mechanical in azimuth?

Well thats how it was described for the N010 and, from the corners of my mind, also for the N011 - the antenna design looked identical as well.

 

But I wonder whether it was purely mechnical in azimuth though - the azimuth skew limits were stated as being +/- 85 deg  and up to +/- 90 deg. "in some modes"(probably close combat), which seems hard to achieve with purely mechanical scanning(room for the antenna inside the radome).  So I could imagine that it could be a case of a "more normal" mechanical antenna deflection of e.g. +/- 65 and 70 deg respectively with a further 20 degree electronic beam deflection relative to the antenna. 

 

 

On 12/16/2020 at 6:37 PM, BlackPixxel said:

 

 

This is the video (with timestamp) where some of the HUD symbology is shown, on a Su-57 though.

The narrator says that a target with the X mark is a target that is being engaged. Look how at first target 1 was engaged, later target 1 is no longer there (destroyed) and target 4 gets engaged.

 

In the HUD photo above, both targets have the X mark. Also, there the targets are marked with circle and diamond, which is the same symbology the MiG-29S uses in DCS for its SNP2 mode.

Yeah but the Su-57 HUD footage does look quite different to your Su-30 shot though and I am still not quite sure how to interpret it.....nor about the accuracy of DCS's SNP2 mode representation for that matter.

 

But anyway, I looked around for information on the N011M "Bars" and noticed that the specs currently stated for it(by NiiP), differ from their previously published ones - e.g. the max number of simultaneously tracked and engaged targets have increased to 25 and 6 respectively, and apparently it has undergone an upgrade since its first introduction with the Su-30MKI for India. My impression is that the "Bars" has been a sort of long term WIP project, where it initially was all about the PESA antenna itself(just fitting it on the N011 block) and then gradually improve on the complex as such to take full advantage of its potential. The new N035 Irbis is also heavily based on the Bars and several of its features were first tested on an experimental version of this - e.g. such as fitting two separate high output emitters(with a combined peak of some 20 Kw).

 

 

 

[BlackPixxel]

2 hours ago, Seaeagle said:

Yes I guess that could work, but I still think also alternating the frequency would make more sense.

 

Here are some of the commands that the R-27R receives before launch:

 

 

As you can see, one of them is the index of the missile (1 or 2), which defines which radio correction signal it will look for.

 

 

 

Radio correction for missile 1 and 2 is seperated by time, as you can see here in the next graph:

 

One "working period" consists of 358.4 ms of RK1-1 (radio correction signal for missile 1), 358.4 ms of RK1-1 (radio correction signal for missile 2) and a "reserve" of about 300 ms.

Then the cycle repeats, each missile is updated with 1 Hz.

 

Each radio correction signal is now time multiplexed with the regular radar tracking operation.

The radar operation cycle takes 20.48 ms, which is followed by 30.72 ms of radio correction signal. During each 30.72 ms, a single value of the target gets transmitted (3D position AND 3D velocity of the target get updated, so 6 values  = 6 time frames needed). There is an additional 7th frame, "RK", which is for commands to the missile.

 

So the radio correction signal for the two missiles is definetly time multiplexed.

 

During homing, it is not mentioned that the missile differentiates between frames for missile 1 and missile 2.

So the half-PRF "feature" maybe means that every second frame CAN be empty and the missile will still be able to guide, not that it is ignoring every second frame by default.

 

If that is the case, then it is very likely that the PESA radar will, when engaging two targets, use a different illumination frequency for each target, otherwise each missile could pick up radiation intended for the other missile during every second time frame, where the other target is painted.

 

 

 

On the other hand, that earlier quote of the MiG-29 manual states that the missile operates with half of the PRF.

Using the command of the upper screenshot, it would already know which time frame it has to look for.

Edited December 18, 2020 by BlackPixxel

[F-2]

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The MKII model can only serve as an interceptor while the MK3 can fire anti-ship and anti-radiation supersonic Kh-31A/P series and television-guided Kh-59 subsonic cruise missiles. The NO11M radar provides targeting for laser and television precision-guided missiles.

It allows the MKIII to engage two air targets simultaneously with the R-27 missile or four with the RW-AE missile. It can also engage one air and one ground target at a time while searching for threats. The Su-30MKIII will be built under licence at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd complex at Bangalore, with 140 platforms to be manufactured by 2017. The agreement has an overall value of $5billion, the report said. The certification follows delivery of four Su-30MKIII from NPK Irkut earlier this month. Six more are due by the year-end, fulfilling a series of contracts signed in 1996-1998. These contracts covered 18 Su-30Ks delivered between March 1997 and December 1999 and 32 Su-30MKIs to be delivered between July 2002 and January 2005. A Russian official was quoted as saying that talks are under way concerning a mid-life upgradation of Su-30MKIs. This would involve integration of avionic systems being developed for the Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter, called the T-50 by Sukhoi, together with more powerful engines and an improved logistics system. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20050126235856/http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/12-24e-04.asp
 

 

it seems that the N011m as of the mark III revision (the first with Indian components) could simultaneously fire two R-27 missiles at two separate targets or four R-77s at four targets. It’s not clear from how the article is written if this is a capability gained with the mkiii version or if the author is just listing the radar’s capabilities and this has been present in prior versions.