Devs, please read - Russian radar related (again)

[Octav]

Hello devs,

Happy new year, first of all.

I've noticed some things in Cat's review, regarding the N-019 radar, that I want to discuss about:

 

The ony switch that selects the encounter/pursuit mode is the V/D/AVT switch - this one controls the PRF AND the doppler filter banks, appropriate to each mode. The SNP:PPS/ZPS switch has no control over the PRF and the Doppler filter bank selection - in V or D mode, setting it to SNP:PPS will enable SNP mode. Setting it to ZPS will disable SNP mode. It's real function is to select seeker head gain for IR missiles, when the distance to the target is missing (so it's used mainly in the optical modes, when there is no laser distance to target, or when jamming is ussed, depending on the aspect of the target: ZPS for rear aspect (less gain), PPS for front aspect (more gain). So, normally, you only use the SNP:PPS/ZPS switch when you want to enable SNP - you do not have to fiddle with it every time wou switch radar modes.

 

Another thing is the detection ranges in the AVT mode - the only limitation it has is compared to the V mode, which has a max range of 150 km, versus only 100 in AVT mode. Otherwise, receding targets will be detected at the same range as in D mode - the only problem with the AVT mode is that it's scan time is double - instead of scanning the four lines like H:H:H:H (in V mode) or M:M:M:M (in D mode), the radar scans in 2 interleaved full frames H:M:H:M, then M:H:M:H, so if you have a target that's at 67 km, it will appear in one scan frame, then it will disappear in the other, until it will be close enough to be detected in D mode.

 

One more thing about SNP mode - usually the radar's computer automatically selects the most dangerous target, and, via another switch, is instructed wether to automatically lock the target when almost in the range of the currently selected weapon - how will the player be able to change the target (in real life, the pilot will press the KU switch on the stick, and then move the strobe to another target), and if we will have the option to choose wethwr to auto-lock the target or not.

 

This should be it (for now).

All the best,

Octavian

 

P.S The source is the flight manual and pilot info.

[Octav]

Re: Devs, please read - Russian radar related (again)

 

All of them are still in vacation?

:drinkers:

[Kenan]

Re: Devs, please read - Russian radar related (again)

 

Hello devs,

Happy new year, first of all.

I've noticed some things in Cat's review, regarding the N-019 radar, that I want to discuss about:

 

The ony switch that selects the encounter/pursuit mode is the V/D/AVT switch - this one controls the PRF AND the doppler filter banks, appropriate to each mode. The SNP:PPS/ZPS switch has no control over the PRF and the Doppler filter bank selection - in V or D mode, setting it to SNP:PPS will enable SNP mode. Setting it to ZPS will disable SNP mode. It's real function is to select seeker head gain for IR missiles, when the distance to the target is missing (so it's used mainly in the optical modes, when there is no laser distance to target, or when jamming is ussed, depending on the aspect of the target: ZPS for rear aspect (less gain), PPS for front aspect (more gain). So, normally, you only use the SNP:PPS/ZPS switch when you want to enable SNP - you do not have to fiddle with it every time wou switch radar modes.

 

Another thing is the detection ranges in the AVT mode - the only limitation it has is compared to the V mode, which has a max range of 150 km, versus only 100 in AVT mode. Otherwise, receding targets will be detected at the same range as in D mode - the only problem with the AVT mode is that it's scan time is double - instead of scanning the four lines like H:H:H:H (in V mode) or M:M:M:M (in D mode), the radar scans in 2 interleaved full frames H:M:H:M, then M:H:M:H, so if you have a target that's at 67 km, it will appear in one scan frame, then it will disappear in the other, until it will be close enough to be detected in D mode.

 

P.S The source is the flight manual and pilot info.

 

Ok. in english now... :?: :lol:

[Passed_Pawn]

Octav, my friend, it is simply a matter of tweaking the divariable trunk lid hum supressors and adjusting the bias on the electronic rocker panels. Quite simple, really. 8)

[Olgerd]

Re: Devs, please read - Russian radar related (again)

 

Hello devs,

Happy new year, first of all.

I've noticed some things in Cat's review, regarding the N-019 radar, that I want to discuss about:

 

The ony switch that selects the encounter/pursuit mode is the V/D/AVT switch - this one controls the PRF AND the doppler filter banks, appropriate to each mode. The SNP:PPS/ZPS switch has no control over the PRF and the Doppler filter bank selection - in V or D mode, setting it to SNP:PPS will enable SNP mode. Setting it to ZPS will disable SNP mode. It's real function is to select seeker head gain for IR missiles, when the distance to the target is missing (so it's used mainly in the optical modes, when there is no laser distance to target, or when jamming is ussed, depending on the aspect of the target: ZPS for rear aspect (less gain), PPS for front aspect (more gain). So, normally, you only use the SNP:PPS/ZPS switch when you want to enable SNP - you do not have to fiddle with it every time wou switch radar modes.

 

Another thing is the detection ranges in the AVT mode - the only limitation it has is compared to the V mode, which has a max range of 150 km, versus only 100 in AVT mode. Otherwise, receding targets will be detected at the same range as in D mode - the only problem with the AVT mode is that it's scan time is double - instead of scanning the four lines like H:H:H:H (in V mode) or M:M:M:M (in D mode), the radar scans in 2 interleaved full frames H:M:H:M, then M:H:M:H, so if you have a target that's at 67 km, it will appear in one scan frame, then it will disappear in the other, until it will be close enough to be detected in D mode.

 

One more thing about SNP mode - usually the radar's computer automatically selects the most dangerous target, and, via another switch, is instructed wether to automatically lock the target when almost in the range of the currently selected weapon - how will the player be able to change the target (in real life, the pilot will press the KU switch on the stick, and then move the strobe to another target), and if we will have the option to choose wethwr to auto-lock the target or not.

 

This should be it (for now).

All the best,

Octavian

 

P.S The source is the flight manual and pilot info.

 

In 1.1 automatic lockon will occur everytime SNP mode is engaged. You will be able to reselect another target after automatic lockon by moving TDC to another target's return and pressing TAB key.

[Olgerd]

Re: Devs, please read - Russian radar related (again)

 

It's real function is to select seeker head gain for IR missiles, when the distance to the target is missing (so it's used mainly in the optical modes, when there is no laser distance to target, or when jamming is ussed, depending on the aspect of the target: ZPS for rear aspect (less gain), PPS for front aspect (more gain).

 

Are you sure about this function of the switch? Can you call sources of the info?

[Octav]

Re: Devs, please read - Russian radar related (again)

 

It's real function is to select seeker head gain for IR missiles, when the distance to the target is missing (so it's used mainly in the optical modes, when there is no laser distance to target, or when jamming is ussed, depending on the aspect of the target: ZPS for rear aspect (less gain), PPS for front aspect (more gain).

 

Are you sure about this function of the switch? Can you call sources of the info?

 

Hello Olgred - well, the manual clearly states the fact that the switch position is only useful when the distance (and hence the aspect) to the target is unknown. And a pilot told me that the seeker head gain is adjusted depending on target aspect, which makes sense - otherwise, why use it only when you don't have a distance, and leave it to ZPS otherwise?

 

Octav

 

P.S. By the way, any chances the devs might fix the way the SNP:PPS/ZPS switch works ( not necesarily the seeker head gain part, but the way it is used to select SNP - and the fact that SNP uses ONLY medium PRF)

[Olgerd]

Octav.

 

Regarding to SNP logic - it will still unchanged till 1.1 release. It the time for release out (i.e. too late in any case). :wink:

 

BTW. I am interested to continue the conversation.

Can you explain please which one of aircraft/operations manuals did you meant? Or the "IR-missiles gain" info was taken from the pilot?

[Octav]

Octav.

 

Regarding to SNP logic - it will still unchanged till 1.1 release. It the time for release out (i.e. too late in any case). :wink:

 

BTW. I am interested to continue the conversation.

Can you explain please which one of aircraft/operations manuals did you meant? Or the "IR-missiles gain" info was taken from the pilot?

 

Ok then.. I'll wait to 1.15 :D

 

Regarding the info - the pilot's manual states the fact that the switch is used to set the attack hemisphere only if the distance to the target is missing, and the pilot told me (and his source was a Russian missile engineer, which came here to assist some live firing tests) that based on that switch, or the target's aspect (if known), the SUV will adjust the gain of the seekers. Well, we already know that the SUV can alter parameters in the missiles, based on the position of cockpit switches and knobs - one example is the roximity fuse gain of the R-27's radio fuze, based on the position of the BAZA knob. And this is also documented in the manual.

 

Octav

[SwingKid]

Olgerd,

 

There is an English translation of the "MiG-29 Flight Manual Declassified" by Alan R. Wise that can now be purchased. From it in "Section Eight: Operation of Systems and Equipment" is written about R-60:

 

"When using R60 missiles to destroy a target in the front hemisphere (against afterburning targets), for maintaining the homing accuracy as with the target attack in the rear hemisphere, it is necessary to alter the gain of the aircraft control circuit. A command for altering this gain factor is generated by the armament control system with the FHS RHS selector switch set to the FHS position on the missile control panel."

 

Of course, the same switch also commands track-while-scan radar mode, and I thought it also adjusted some parameters for R-27R as well. Octav, where is the "BAZA knob" and its description? And what is the "KU" switch?

 

-SK

[Octav]

Hello Andrew, and a Happy New Year.

 

The BAZA (base) knob is located on the main armament control panel (on the front upper left part of the instrument panel, on the left of the alpha/G indcator). It is the knob nearest to the alpha/G indicator, and it has 2 functions - first one is to enter the target's wingspan, for the usage of the cannon in funnel mode. Also, based on that, the weapons computer (SUV) adjusts the sensitivity of the R-27's proximity fuse. The knob's position starts from Small (fully turned to the left), to Medium (center) and Large (fully right). If no accurate data on the target's wingspan is known, the following positions are used: Small for drones and cruise missiles, Medium for fighters, and Large for bombers.

 

The KU (actually it is written in Russian KY) switch is the leftmost switch on the stick. It is a four-way switch (left/right, up/down), used to control the STROB (target designator box). It can also be depressed, triggering a fifth switch, which has several functions. In SNP mode, depressing it allows the pilot to move the strob to another target, and releasing it will instruct the computer to prioritize that target. Also, when jamming is present, in a lock-on-jam situation, by depressing the switch you cand then enter the distance to the target manually, by keeping the switch depressed and moving it up/down, to move the arrow on the distance scale.

 

I hope this was clear.

Cheers,

Octavian

[Olgerd]

OK. Thanks to you, Swingkid, for naming the source.

 

Practically all information Octav typed there was well known for me personally and for our another programmer as well. Actually we have two different "MiG-29 weapons delivery manuals" - both are core AF (one seems to be for export version) manuals for fighter pilots.

Only the one thing is confusing me. In ANY MiG-29 manual I never seen before ANY mentions about "IR-missiles gain" function of SNP switch. Right now I prefer to think that the function is related to either some very early production aircrafts, or overwise - to some very late ones.

Any thoughts welcome.

 

P.S.

And... KU switch mentioned there in real life called - KU-31. :wink:

[Octav]

Only the one thing is confusing me. In ANY MiG-29 manual I never seen before ANY mentions about "IR-missiles gain" function of SNP switch. Right now I prefer to think that the function is related to either some very early production aircrafts, or overwise - to some very late ones.

Any thoughts welcome.

 

P.S.

And... KU switch mentioned there in real life called - KU-31. :wink:

 

Hello Olgerd,

I also found the gain function referenced in my copy of the manual, in Chapter 8, subchapter "aircreft armament". I don't think this function is limited to some aircraft batches only. Our 29's were delivered between 1989 and 1992, and even the 9.13 model we had had this function - if this function wasn't necessary, I think they could have removed the ZPS/PPS labels, and kept only the SNP label on one side of the switch. But, there is absolutely no reference that the pilot has to place the switch to PPS if he's in V mode, or in ZPS if he's in D mode, to enable SNP - SNP is enabled by placing the switch to PPS position. So maybe this sould be in the list for the new patch, after 1.1 (if now this thing is too late to be done). And, one more thing - in the same chapter, at the subchapter describing the weapons system controls, the function of the PPS:ZPS switch is described as, and I quote : "the SNP:PPS/ZPS switch function is to select the engagement of the SNP mode, when placed in the SNP:PPS position, and to select the attack hemisphere, when the currnet distance to the target is missing in the SHLEM, OPT, TP, FI0 modes", end quote.

 

And, by the way, KY comes from кнoпка управления, and it seems that everything related to weapons systems control in that aircraft has the -31 in int's designation - you have the PSR-31 main weapons systems control panel, the PUR-31 radar control panel, the PU-S-31 cannon and bombing control panel, and the PK-31 control panel. ;)

 

Cheers,

Octavian

[BIOLOG]

Hmmm... Olgerd, are two manuals that you've got from airwar.ru? I've seen some pages from third manual, which is real (non-export), but I highly doubt I can obtain a copy of it... I can try if you want thou....

[Octav]

One more thing, Olgerd - in chapter 5, "Operation in combat", the fi0 mode is described as being of use in case all the other modes fail (thus so are the RLS and TP). Yet, you still have to set the PPS/ZPS switch (so it supports the theory that it's used to alter some parameters in the IR missiles, based on the attack hemisphere, not in the onboard systems).

 

Octav

[SwingKid]

In ANY MiG-29 manual I never seen before ANY mentions about "IR-missiles gain" function of SNP switch. Right now I prefer to think that the function is related to either some very early production aircrafts, or overwise - to some very late ones.

Any thoughts welcome.

 

Now that I read the text again, I notice that it does not specifically mention "IRH missile seeker gain," but rather the gain of the "aircraft control circuit" - ?? I don't know what this means, maybe the fighter's own IRST gain, or some adjustment to the flight path of the missile (e.g. amount of lead, fuze speed?) I never exactly understood this switch.

 

-SK

[Octav]

Now that I read the text again, I notice that it does not specifically mention "IRH missile seeker gain," but rather the gain of the "aircraft control circuit" - ?? I don't know what this means, maybe the fighter's own IRST gain, or some adjustment to the flight path of the missile (e.g. amount of lead, fuze speed?) I never exactly understood this switch.

 

-SK

 

Andrew, read my previous post - the ZPS/PPS switch is also used in FI0 mode, where neither the radar nor the electro-optical systems are used - just the missile seeker.

Octav

[SwingKid]

Andrew, read my previous post - the ZPS/PPS switch is also used in FI0 mode, where neither the radar nor the electro-optical systems are used - just the missile seeker.

Octav

 

I read both the previous post and the text from the actual manual. The fact that radar and EO are notused is not IMHO itself evidence that the ZPS/PPS does reduce missile seeker gain, however probable that may be. If it is really true, then we should be able to find better evidence than this. It may be just setting the fuze speed, loft angle or something else (see second last paragraph of http://www.sci.fi/~fta/MiG-29-3b.htm ). The Fi0 mode description just says to set the switch, without any indication what it actually does. As for "aircraft control circuit" - that could mean anything. We should be clear what we do and do not know. If you see my keyboard command layout proposal ( http://forum.lockon.ru/viewtopic.php?t=2796 ), you can see why I am not exactly eager to add more controls. :wink:

 

-SK

[Octav]

 

I read both the previous post and the text from the actual manual. The fact that radar and EO are notused is not IMHO itself evidence that the ZPS/PPS does reduce missile seeker gain, however probable that may be. If it is really true, then we should be able to find better evidence than this. It may be just setting the fuze speed, loft angle or something else (see second last paragraph of http://www.sci.fi/~fta/MiG-29-3b.htm ). The Fi0 mode description just says to set the switch, without any indication what it actually does. As for "aircraft control circuit" - that could mean anything. We should be clear what we do and do not know. If you see my keyboard command layout proposal ( http://forum.lockon.ru/viewtopic.php?t=2796 ), you can see why I am not exactly eager to add more controls. :wink:

 

-SK

 

Allrigh Andrew,

I understand your point - but at least we can agree with the fact that the switch has nothing to do with the radar modes, except enabling SNP in one of it's positions. At the moment I'm not whining about seeker gain adjustment options, so that's ok with me - I'm only bothered by the fact that radar operation was complicated more than realistically necessary.

 

Regardink keyboard layout - I've read that from the time it was in the F-15 thread, I find it very interesting, although it will take some time to master - maybe someone should start designing a hardware cockpit and connecting it to the PC via USB.

 

Cheers,

Octavian

[Olgerd]

Hmmm... Olgerd, are two manuals that you've got from airwar.ru? I've seen some pages from third manual, which is real (non-export), but I highly doubt I can obtain a copy of it... I can try if you want thou....

 

One - yes. One another - not. Have you just one page from your another manual? Can you send the page to me? I will compare it with what I have. Drop a line in private please. Thanks.

[Olgerd]

Only the one thing is confusing me. In ANY MiG-29 manual I never seen before ANY mentions about "IR-missiles gain" function of SNP switch. Right now I prefer to think that the function is related to either some very early production aircrafts, or overwise - to some very late ones.

Any thoughts welcome.

 

P.S.

And... KU switch mentioned there in real life called - KU-31. :wink:

 

Hello Olgerd,

I also found the gain function referenced in my copy of the manual, in Chapter 8, subchapter "aircreft armament". I don't think this function is limited to some aircraft batches only. Our 29's were delivered between 1989 and 1992, and even the 9.13 model we had had this function - if this function wasn't necessary, I think they could have removed the ZPS/PPS labels, and kept only the SNP label on one side of the switch. But, there is absolutely no reference that the pilot has to place the switch to PPS if he's in V mode, or in ZPS if he's in D mode, to enable SNP - SNP is enabled by placing the switch to PPS position. So maybe this sould be in the list for the new patch, after 1.1 (if now this thing is too late to be done). And, one more thing - in the same chapter, at the subchapter describing the weapons system controls, the function of the PPS:ZPS switch is described as, and I quote : "the SNP:PPS/ZPS switch function is to select the engagement of the SNP mode, when placed in the SNP:PPS position, and to select the attack hemisphere, when the currnet distance to the target is missing in the SHLEM, OPT, TP, FI0 modes", end quote.

 

And, by the way, KY comes from кнoпка управления, and it seems that everything related to weapons systems control in that aircraft has the -31 in int's designation - you have the PSR-31 main weapons systems control panel, the PUR-31 radar control panel, the PU-S-31 cannon and bombing control panel, and the PK-31 control panel. ;)

 

Cheers,

Octavian

 

OK, Octav. I will try to talk with pilots. May be it will clear something to us.

[Octav]

OK, Octav. I will try to talk with pilots. May be it will clear something to us.

 

I'll wait to see what you can find out - but at least, on the radar function of the ZPS/PPS switch do we agree on?

 

Octav