A-10CII Throttles not responding

[Sobecho]

Hello all,

 

  I am having a issues i have tried searching for on the intranets with no prevail. 

 

Im using a VKB Gunfighter, CM3 Virpil and for some reason the throttles are not responding. That being said, I have tried a few issues to correct it as listed below:

 

Delete LUA files - Didnt work

Uncheck Sync Hotas - Didnt work ( even when check )

Maped controled to Keyborad/used default - didnt work

Used Virpil CM3 - Didnt work

Used VKB buttons on stick - didnt work

Threw my self in traffic - Painful but didnt work

Key commands for Cut off to Idle - did not work even in auto startup with default commands

 

 

[Tippis]

Not responding in which sense?

 

Do they show up properly in the bind screen?

Are the axes detected properly, and can you bind them at all?

Do they show correct input response in the bind screen when bound (i.e. you get the small blue bars indicating the axis position when you move them)?

Do the throttles not move in spite of that?

…when you air start?

…when you hot start on the ground?

…when you cold start on the ground?

 

At what point in that list do they no longer respond? Each will have a few different possible causes and potential solutions.

 

It  sounds like you've tried it, but still, as a first step move (don't delete) the Saved Games\DCS\Config\Input\A-10[whatever] directory/ies to a safe place so you start from scratch with default binds for everything. Then take a screen shot of the axis assign screen so we can see if there's anything obvious that breaks down already at that stage.

[LeCuvier]

are you sure you have disabled "game flight mode" and "game avionics mode"?

[Sobecho]

Game Flight mode and avionics mode is disabled.

 

Yes they all show up bound correctly and while in the setting controls menu if i hit the keys, the list will snap to the action.

Axis are bound and showing in the correct positions

The throttles dont move in spite

This happens when im on the gorund, cold

 

Have not tried while airborn or hot start 

 

I have uninstalled the A10CII module and reinstalled. Still a isseue. 

 

I will work on the screen shot and moving the files now and then upload

[Tippis]

Check with an airstart, because if they work there, it sounds more likely that the throttle is simply not past the idle/cut-off detent and you might need to check the binds for that toggle.

[imacken]

The A-10C (I and II) is unique in DCS modules - certainly the ones I use - in that there is no engine idle/off binding.  It is necessary to bind Engine Off and Engine Start which is annoying, especially when setting up the detents on the CM3 throttle.

 

HOTAS aside for the moment, are you saying that the basic key commands as per the attachment, don't work for you?  So, after Engine Start, the throttle controls don't work?

Edited March 16, 2021 by imacken

[Tippis]

^ True that.

 

But the behaviour is more complicated and less intuitive than the binds alone would suggest since they're (at least in part) set up to expect the kind of idle detent you see on the TM Warthog throttle, where you lift and pull to activate that engine off button. By the related logic, it will interpret the button being released as the command to move to idle position, unlike in many other aircraft where that movement is its own specific bind. Even on the TMWH, you commonly have to wiggle the throttle in and out of idle/off position to make the game figure out the correct current position (and especially to sync up the off position so you can move it to idle).

 

So, essentially, if Engine Start doesn't work, see if pressing, holding, and then releasing engine stop will loosen up the in-game throttle. If you see that behaviour, DCS is treating your CM3 the same way it would a TMWH.

 

Hence why a hot or airstart would/should yield a different behaviour: because the game assumes the throttle is already past the idle stop and is free to move around. On a cold start, it will instead assume that the throttle is locked in the stop position until it detects that engine stop button release signal.

[imacken]

I'm not entirely sure that I understand what you mean.

I have a CM3 with classic detents, and by a process - described in detail here Virpil CM3 throttle – setting up detents and comparison with CM2 - VIRPIL Controls - ED Forums (eagle.ru) - I have all aircraft working perfectly with my 'lift and over' classic detent with only off/idle bound or occasionally just OFF as some modules happily move form OFF to IDLE..  I have a axis-to-button assigned to 0-2% for this.

However, the A-10C is unique in that it doesn't have a off/idle bind available nor does the 'off' move it to idle, so I have to waste 2 axis-to-button slots just for that module.  So I have 0-2% for OFF and 3-4% for start (just past the detent).

If we had a OFF/IDLE in the A-10C, I would save 2 of my 4 precious axis-to-button slots on the CM3.

[Tippis]

I'm saying that, the trick to the A-10 is that you don't need an off/idle bind, or at least not as a toggle the way you often see in other aircraft. It is set up to make use of the TMWH's button at the lower end of the throttle travel, where lifting the throttle over the stop and placing it in the far rear position engages two separate buttons. By binding these to "Left/Right Engine Throttle Set OFF", you get both functions in one bind.

 

You can move the throttle to idle, not by pressing "engine start" but by releasing the Throttle Set OFF button. The functionality you're asking for is pretty much there already - it just operates on a different logic that is related to how the buttons on the TMWH is set up. I'm pretty sure that the Virpil software would let you set up something similar, but as with all hardware programming interfaces, it's... not entirely intuitive how to do so, let's say

[imacken]

And I’m saying it doesn’t work that way on the A-10C. As you describe is how most modules work, i.e. moving from OFF button puts the engine to Idle, but not in the A-10C. 

Yes, I do have the throttle buttons set up for that correctly as I explained above. 
I suspect it has to do with the age of the module that is making this aircraft more awkward. 

[Tippis]

45 minutes ago, imacken said:

And I’m saying it doesn’t work that way on the A-10C.

Yes it does. I just went in and checked it because I wasn't sure off the top of my head what the actual binds were called.

 

Right now, in-game, if I lift and pull my throttle to the off position, activating the button that sits there, the in-game throttle moves to off and the engines shut down; if I push my throttle to the idle position, releasing the button, the in-game throttle moves to the idle position and the engine start cycle engages.

 

The “Throttle Set OFF” bind for the two throttle axes is a button that both moves the throttle to the off position (when pressed) and to the idle position (when released), because it is pretty much specifically intended to make use of the TMWH throttle button setup. There are a number of other binds available to move it to one position or the other if you have a different hardware setup that cannot make use of this press/release scheme, but those are more for pure keyboard usage tbh.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Tippis

[imacken]

Interesting. Doesn’t work that way for me. As I have said, all other modules do exactly that, but for the A-10C, I have to have Engine OFF and START both bound to do what are saying. 
Off goes to OFF and START goes to IDLE. 

I wish it did work as you are suggesting. 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by imacken

[LeCuvier]

The A-10C (both versions) has the commands "Left Engine Throttle Set OFF" and "Right Engine Throttle Set OFF" for the TM Warthog throttle. Stupidly, they omitted to add them to the "default.lua". The commands in the file "Throttle - HOTAS Warthog.lua" are implemented by these 2 lines:

{combos = {{key = 'JOY_BTN30'}}    ,down = iCommandLeftEngineStop , up = iCommandLeftEngineStart,  name = _('Left Engine Throttle Set OFF') , category = _('Systems')},
{combos = {{key = 'JOY_BTN29'}}    ,down = iCommandRightEngineStop, up = iCommandRightEngineStart, name = _('Right Engine Throttle Set OFF'), category = _('Systems')},

The code includes default bindings for the TM WH throttle. You can copy these lines and paste them into the "default.lua". I remove the default bindings:

{down = iCommandLeftEngineStop , up = iCommandLeftEngineStart,  name = _('Left Engine Throttle Set OFF') , category = _('Systems')},
{down = iCommandRightEngineStop, up = iCommandRightEngineStart, name = _('Right Engine Throttle Set OFF'), category = _('Systems')},

If you paste these lines into your "default.lua" they are available for all game controllers. For them to work, your CM3 throttle needs to emulate the switch behaviour of the TM WH throttle:
The  event IDLE --> OFF makes the switch transition from OFF to ON and vice versa. If your switch operates the other way around you need to swap the commands in the two lines.

[imacken]

Now that sounds interesting.

I can't get it to work though, clearly I'm doing something wrong.

So, I'm looking at E:\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\Config\Input\Aircrafts\Default\joystick\default.lua, yes?  I insert your first 2 lines and delete 2 second two?

Nothing shows up in Controls with the names '.... Throttle Set...'.

What am I doing wrong?

[Tippis]

Just in general, one of the most massive QoL improvements that could ever be made to DCS is to triple-nuke all device-specific limitations and binds into a smoking crater and simply open up the underlying on-press/on-release binding capabilities that already exist and give the user direct control over it. Because that's all it is: “special device” binds that trigger on button releases as well as button presses. The switching logic is already in the UI, just not the ability to actually put it to use where it would do the most good so instead you have to go into the Lua deep dives.

 

It would instantly solve all these issues; it would solve the problems where some devices are idiotically restricted to only work with specific binds; it would free the developers from the impossible chore of trying to figure out what HOTAS shortcuts they should include; it would make the whole bind functionality infinitely less brittle. But instead, we have these constant issues, and binds that show up more and more duplicated and overlapping ever patch.

 

[imacken]

That sounds good to me!

I'd love to get LeCuvier's suggestion working though at the moment.

[imacken]

Got it! I knew I was being stupid, I was using the wrong default.lua file.

So, I added in 

{down = iCommandLeftEngineStop , up = iCommandLeftEngineStart,  name = _('Left Engine Throttle Set OFF') , category = _('Systems')},
{down = iCommandRightEngineStop, up = iCommandRightEngineStart, name = _('Right Engine Throttle Set OFF'), category = _('Systems')},

and didn't have to delete anything as the lines suggested for deletion didn't exist.

Works perfectly! Now, I can get rid of those axis-to-button settings in VPC software.

Thank you so much, LeCuvier!

[imacken]

Apologies to Sobecho for hijacking his thread!

[LeCuvier]

@Tippis: I agree mostly with your opininion.

 

1. The "default.lua" should contain all bindings available for a module.

 

2. However, device-specific files make sense in some cases. Example: I have the TM Warthog throttle and I have the A-10C I and II.

The file "Throttle - HOTAS Warthog.lua" in the A-10C folder structure contains default bindings (the "combos =..." statements) which are perfect for the A-10C.

But there is no reason at all why the "default.lua" should not contain all the bindings of the "Throttle - HOTAS Warthog.lua", and vice versa.

 

3, Currently devices like the Thrustmaster MFD's can only be bound to the sim MFD buttons and switches for which the "F16 MFD 1.lua" or "F16 MFD 2.lua" has bindings defined. Many simmers want to use some of the physical buttons/switches for other commands. That's only possible if you edit these files.

ED should change the design so that the device-specific files only contain lines with device-aircraft-specific default bindings, and all the bindings defined in "default.lua" are "included" for the aircraft.

 

[LeCuvier]

@SobechoThe post exchange with imacken might seem off-topic, but I don't think it is.

1. Which of the commands for throttle OFF/IDLE have you bound to the detent switch on your CM3 throttle?

2. The solution outlined for imacken might work for you too.

[Tippis]

I think we actually agree in full — we're just approaching it from different perspectives.

 

The thing is, device-specific files shouldn't even be needed if the binding methodology was opened up to actually expose the full functionality that exists underneath. There could conceivably still be different defaults put into place if DCS detects a “known” module, and that's fine — it's these solutions that are now in place (like the one that caused confusion earlier) that should be made universally available and leave it up to the player to decide exactly how they activate some given function.

 

It's the multitude of implementations we see at the moment, where some specific input is only available if you have a given device even though more modern hardware could trivially be made to work the same way, or in the case of the MFDs you mentioned where a given hardware is arbitrarily limited to only allow certain functions even though they could be used for much more. Those limitations just need to die a horrible and gruesome death.

 

The defaulting is one problem; the inability to access on-press/on-release functions is another; and the developers' constant need to compensate for those two by guessing what special solutions need to be implemented is a third. It could all go away, so easily.