Fox1 guidance failure in FC1.12a

[FLANKERATOR]

Hi Folks!

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me with one question about BVR on the Flanker:

 

I dont know why sometimes the R27ER or the R27EM stops following its targets and continue in ballistic course even though im providing constant Lock from the Flanker radar and making sure that my altitude is clearly below of the bandit one during the missile interception course to avoid beaming or a lock lost???

Still often the ALAMO looses its guidance when approaching the target and goes straight ahead while my radar continues showing a stable lock.

 

 

Thanks by advance.

 

Flank.

Edited September 1, 2008 by FLANKERATOR

[A.S]

Its a very good question. I noticed this myself few times and i have my 2 theories why this can happen, but i have to confirm it for myself with few test flights. My guess goes in direction "pre-chaffs" in that area or bandit maneuvering moment.

Maybe someone else can explain it better meanwhile. Would also love to hear the answer.

[GGTharos]

Yep, it can be locked onto pre-emptively launched chaff; that's about the only thing that I can -obviously- see happening. There is a possibility that lock gets cleanly broken for some other reason, which is also possible in LO.

 

Realistically, you'd probably be likely to see SARH missiles of that era come dumb off the rail, too ...

[A.S]

There is a possibility that lock gets cleanly broken for some other reason, which is also possible in LO.

 

..talking bout Rock n´Roll ? :music_whistling:

[Boberro]

I noticed it too!

 

As far I like to R-27EM and very often I guide it by Shlem Helmet mode, often when I am chasing victim and have solid lock provided by Shlem, the R-27EM missiles go straight, I think it is by chaffs which still "fly" behind target and mislead EMs :(

[GGTharos]

Nah, you don't even need to do that. Sometimes a hard break is enough.

 

..talking bout Rock n´Roll ? :music_whistling:

[A.S]

Nah, you don't even need to do that. Sometimes a hard break is enough.

 

yeah got it ... what would also confirm the ÜBER-chaff theory is this example:

 

You can lock a target in TWS and shoot an AIM-7 and go STT at "right time" ...works...but not IF Bandit chaffs between your Bug and Hardlock.

Or if bandit releases Chaffs and THEN goes ECM...that also knocks out the mighty HOJ shot. (in few cases)

 

countermeasures should be called Pre-Counters ,)

Edited September 1, 2008 by A.S

[RvETito]

It depends on the range/aspect combo too. When you launch you get the targeting circle on the HUD flashing, that means the missile is tracking. At the moment it stops flashing even for part of the second (target goes beam and EOS takes over) your missile is trashed, you can kiss it bye-bye. Do you mean that it still goes dumb with flashing targeting circle? If so, I'd say it's realistic. The export R-27R1 is given PK 0.6-0.7 for single missile shot and 0.85-0.9 for salvo of two missiles.

 

Boberros, neither version of R-27 can be slaved to the helmet sight. It serves only for the R-73 and R-60M. I haven't tried that in LO tbh, but I'm not surprised it's there. You shouldn't be able to launch semiactive missile in that mode since it's primary channel is the EOS.

[GGTharos]

yeah got it ... what would also confirm the ÜBER-chaff theory is this example:

 

You can lock a target in TWS and shoot an AIM-7 and go STT at "right time" ...works...but not IF Bandit chaffs between your Bug and Hardlock.

Or if bandit releases Chaffs and THEN goes ECM...that also knocks out the mighty HOJ shot.

 

You can't actually do that, can you? I've tried and it hasn't worked for me so far (and really, it probably shouldn't)

 

countermeasures should be called Pre-Counters ,)

 

It's called pre-emptive countermeasure application and it is a real world thing :)

[FLANKERATOR]

oh! i didn't even know that chaffs work on SARH. I thought that the aircraft radar gives instruction to the missile warhead for proximity detonation so chaff or not the missile does not give a shit he just follows orders from the platform radar like a SAM which also makes the SARH having a much higher PK.

[GGTharos]

Do you have any say ... 'interesting' information regarding the E-E conflict, BTW? It gives R-27's very, very low Pk, but I don't like using that conflict as an example because there are no descriptions of the circumstances under which those shots were taken.

 

It depends on the range/aspect combo too. When you launch you get the targeting circle on the HUD flashing, that means the missile is tracking. At the moment it stops flashing even for part of the second (target goes beam and EOS takes over) your missile is trashed, you can kiss it bye-bye. Do you mean that it still goes dumb with flashing targeting circle? If so, I'd say it's realistic. The export R-27R1 is given PK 0.6-0.7 for single missile shot and 0.85-0.9 for salvo of two missiles.

 

Boberros, neither version of R-27 can be slaved to the helmet sight. It serves only for the R-73 and R-60M. I haven't tried that in LO tbh, but I'm not surprised it's there. You shouldn't be able to launch semiactive missile in that mode since it's primary channel is the EOS.

[GGTharos]

No, aircraft radar only provides illumination and of course the radar's own carrier signal for doppler shift detection by the missile ... everything else (Actual guidance, prox fuze, etc) is done autonomously by the missile.

 

SAMs that are SARH are vulnerable to the same problem - even missiles that are beam-riders or SACLOS like SA-2, though the vulnerability is in a different part of the system.

 

oh! i didn't even know that chaffs work on SARH. I thought that the aircraft radar gives instruction to the missile warhead for proximity detonation so chaff or not the missile does not give a shit he just follows orders from the platform radar like a SAM which also makes the SARH having a much higher PK.

[FLANKERATOR]

It depends on the range/aspect combo too. When you launch you get the targeting circle on the HUD flashing, that means the missile is tracking. At the moment it stops flashing even for part of the second (target goes beam and EOS takes over) your missile is trashed, you can kiss it bye-bye. Do you mean that it still goes dumb with flashing targeting circle? If so, I'd say it's realistic. The export R-27R1 is given PK 0.6-0.7 for single missile shot and 0.85-0.9 for salvo of two missiles.

 

no Flashing occured and no beaming too, i just launshed 2 ALAMOs at high altitude and went on fast descending cranck to keep "look up"radar profile. Lock was maintained without flashing but somehow the SARH took 5 gs to go straight ballistic loosing its guidance...

[A.S]

GG .. bugging to hardlock combo with and semi-active does work, but you have to know how to execute it. the right recipe in other words.

 

Flanker, chaffs do influence semi-actives...where instead they should not influence actives in that same way, what they do.

[Boberro]

Boberros, neither version of R-27 can be slaved to the helmet sight. It serves only for the R-73 and R-60M. I haven't tried that in LO tbh, but I'm not surprised it's there. You shouldn't be able to launch semiactive missile in that mode since it's primary channel is the EOS.

 

Yep u can use what u want in Helmet. Even R-33 when u lope aircraft. :D. Anyway I use R-27EM in Helmet. But "problem" with straight course of Alamo is also in normal radar mode.

 

I always wonder why this circle is flashing, didn't know it means missile is still tracking, thx!

Edited September 1, 2008 by Boberro

[RvETito]

IRL the SARH uses close principles like ARH- inertial guidance by radar in the initial stage of the flight and semi-active seeker which activates at about 15km and locks on the target. It's kind of a pitbull, with the only difference that the ARH is independent from that moment on, while the SARH seeker needs radar lock on target and guides itself by the reflected signal. BTW, IRL the R-27R (and any other SARH missile) gives launch warning only when it's seeker locks on the target, not from the launch moment. Except of course you're within seeker's lock range. If you launch for example from 30km, the target will get only lock warning and when the missile is at lets say 15km and it's seeker activates then the target gest launch warning. Not the case in LO though, we give the launch warning as soon as we press the trigger.

 

Of course, there are some tricks- launching the missile and locking the target few seconds later to give delayed warning but that's hardly realistic either, especialy about R-27.

[RvETito]

Do you have any say ... 'interesting' information regarding the E-E conflict, BTW? It gives R-27's very, very low Pk, but I don't like using that conflict as an example because there are no descriptions of the circumstances under which those shots were taken.

 

No, this is what's written in the very same MiG-29 manual that is quoted here sometimes. It doesn't take into account things like ECM or other CM. I'm not sure if that's for manuevering or non maneuvering target neither. IMO that's 'ideal' case on the shooting range.

[RvETito]

no Flashing occured and no beaming too, i just launshed 2 ALAMOs at high altitude and went on fast descending cranck to keep "look up"radar profile. Lock was maintained without flashing but somehow the SARH took 5 gs to go straight ballistic loosing its guidance...

 

As long as the circle doesn't flash the missile isn't tracking anything. You say high alt but what was the range?

[A.S]

Yep u can use what u want in Helmet. Even R-33 when u lope aircraft. :D.

 

you are changing the pylons with LOPE in order to shoot them with Helmet?????

 

:ranting:

[GGTharos]

BTW, IRL the R-27R (and any other SARH missile) gives launch warning only when it's seeker locks on the target, not from the launch moment. Except of course you're within seeker's lock range. If you launch for example from 30km, the target will get only lock warning and when the missile is at lets say 15km and it's seeker activates then the target gest launch warning. Not the case in LO though, we give the launch warning as soon as we press the trigger.

 

... woah. Where did -that- info come from? Theoretically there should be no change in the radar waveform, thus making this distinction impossible (in other words, either the waveform changes to a guidance waveform when the missile comes off the rail, or not at all - in the first case, there should be a launch warning when the trigger is pulled, in the latter - never, so you have to treat an STT lock as a missile launch) ... SARH missile has no emissions of its own to detect.

[Boberro]

you are changing the pylons with LOPE in order to shoot them with Helmet?????

 

:ranting:

 

Lope is for pylon change. I tested it and I was able to shoot it offline.

[A.S]

Lope is for pylon change. I tested it and I was able to shoot it offline.

 

kiss kiss dont use that online :cry::smilewink:

[RvETito]

It does change signal- inertial guidance in the initial stage differs from final stage homing. How exactly, I can't answer, neither that manual goes in such details. It's written for pilots, what do they care about this? :D

[FLANKERATOR]

GG .. bugging to hardlock combo with and semi-active does work, but you have to know how to execute it. the right recipe in other words.

 

Flanker, chaffs do influence semi-actives...where instead they should not influence actives in that same way, what they do.

 

so in that case im asking myself why should i take a Fox1 to fight a chaffing and maneuvering target, the same fox1 that forces me to keep lock and take risk for nothing cauz misleaded as easily as a fox3 :music_whistling:

[RvETito]

Because they have the highest energy and maneuverability on LO? ;)