R-73 and R-27T/ET flares resistance revision

[Mistang]

8 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Your statements are proven false in real combat.   Not only that, it's not even hard to find GAO reports where improvements against flares (and of flares) are sought.

Flares are primary in today's defensive programs, and the 'contingency' is 'a missile will or has been launched at me'.   There are no other technologies mounted on the vast majority of fighter aircraft that will help against heat seekers.

 

the only real combat was Afghanistan and soviets btfo

the us lost a decent amount in gulf war, the per sortie loss was similar to Vietnam.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Mistang

[GGTharos]

10 minutes ago, Mistang said:

the only real combat was Afghanistan and soviets btfo

 

I'd say anything where weapons are used is combat, so not sure where you're going with that.

 

Quote

the us lost a decent amount in gulf war, the per sortie loss was similar to Vietnam.

 

I didn't count per sorties loss rates for either case so I'll take your word for it.

On the other hand, the US lost almost nothing in air to air combat in the Gulf War.

 

 

And none of this has to do with flare efficacy.

Edited June 15, 2021 by GGTharos

[Mistang]

23 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

I'd say anything where weapons are used is combat, so not sure where you're going with that.

 

 

I didn't count per sorties loss rates for either case so I'll take your word for it.

On the other hand, the US lost almost nothing in air to air combat in the Gulf War.

 

 

And none of this has to do with flare efficacy.

 

Alright, well, there aren't many other conflicts where IR sams and flares were used 

[nighthawk2174]

On 5/28/2021 at 11:38 AM, GGTharos said:

 

I wouldn't really believe that site ... it makes little sense, and there are videos of real R-27s (used as SAMs) hitting flaring F-15Es.

 

At the same time, as you know the flare model in DCS is completely stochastic while IRL it's anything but.  IRL a new flare could come out and suddenly the ECCM is worth zero, until you correct it.  We have none of this in DCS.  Likewise, IRL flares are used to abuse the data input method of the single detector seekers (ie. pretty much everything before FPAs)  which is not possible in DCS, since we don't really simulate seeker function.   In turn these seekers have fun ECCM like 'if you see the intensity rise faster than this, quit tracking and wait until it passes' - and they also might have a way to count the number of targets, in which case they might have a limited target memory ... and still none of this applicabple to DCS, so, as you know it's all about cheating the dice in DCS

 

There's probably no way to drive the probability of a target switch to 1, just very close to it.

To be fair based on the vid it appears there really weren't any flares in the air near the aircraft having been deployed a number of seconds before the missile is visible (small ifov on the 27T) so its exact resistance can't really be pulled from the vid.  Based on my understanding the strength of the 27/73 seeker is it has small IFOV not that it has a good ability to ignore flares in the fov.  The question is this at all a part of the flare decoy calculations the fov size. 

[spacemishka]

You to drop flares AND maneuver

[okopanja]

On 9/3/2021 at 9:23 AM, spacemishka said:

You to drop flares AND maneuver

On red side R-27ET it is my personal favorite. You launch it at the people flying like eagles and then you turn cold, while they get it in their face. I must say it is difficult to resist staying hot just to watch them hit.

 

I gather it should be called the most hated RED missile by BLUE targets but only after AIM-120c fired by red F-16?

 

Now if only we could prove this missile never existed, but it turns out these work quite well against F-15Es in real life.

 

IMHO: IRL almost all missiles starting from 80s are so much more flare resistant, that throwing flares is more like a placebo effect...

[GumidekCZ]

Take a look into my report.
There is much more wrong about FLARES and IR guided missile flare rejection inconsistency.

Other than throttle setting, it depends on range/time to target - at close range FLAREs becomes almost useles, Why? any real physics behind it?

 

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, GumidekCZ said:

at close range FLAREs becomes almost useles, Why? any real physics behind it?

They exit the FoV too quickly to be of use.  Out of plane maneuvers while dumping flares should give you a better chance of escape.  In-plane turns are just the easiest thing in the world to track aside from straight and level flight.

Edited November 4, 2021 by GGTharos

[Smoak741]

Does anyone have any official sources on this besides dodgy sites and manuals from dcs?