AIM-54 engages will not exceed 20’ish NM

[phantom0gritz]

 

 

While doing some work on a campaign the question came up of which AI aircraft is best for CAP.  We assumed F-14 with 54's.

 

Set a pair of 14's against a pair of 16's as a starting point to test this.  The 14's lost every time because they would not fire until they were within 20'ish NM of the target.  By that time the 16's had long since turned and launch 120's.  We tried both of the Heatblur A and B 14's against said the 16's multiple times with different approaches and target reaction settings with no change.  Then tried against something something bigger just to be sure (B-52's to be exact). The result was the same, AIM-54's at about 20NM.  

 

Just to be extra sure we set up the original DCS F-14A to see what would happen.  AIM-54 shot at around 75NM for a kill.  
 

Almost forgot to mention that we tried all three 54 models.

 

Also I posted this in Heatblur’s bug report section as well.

Edited May 27, 2021 by phantom0gritz

[Raidhen]

Hi,

 

I think that the problem is not the aircraft but the implementation of the missile, the original AIM-54C have better specs than the one use on HB F-14. So the IA can shoot sooner.

[phantom0gritz]

On 5/27/2021 at 3:47 PM, Raidhen said:

Hi,

 

I think that the problem is not the aircraft but the implementation of the missile, the original AIM-54C have better specs than the one use on HB F-14. So the IA can shoot sooner.

 

 

I think I get what you're trying to say but from what I understand the missile's capabilities are the same where it's shot from the HB F-14 or the ED one.  All the missiles have their own flight model and guidance profile specific to that missile.  That way they behave the same regardless of airframe onto which they are loaded.  In this way the missiles behavior is separate from the aircraft in its function.  The aircraft simply relays targeting information and the shot fails/succeeds based on that missile's capabilities versus the target's capabilities.  The problem is that the AI aircraft will not engage with 54's until they are closer than what you would do for a 120 shot on another airframe.  As it stands there is no point in putting 54's on a HB F-14 because you almost might as well have it use sparrows with how close the AI gets to the target.  

[TLTeo]

One possible workaround would be to set the AI to engage at max range. If the missile kinematics are the same as player-flown Tomcats, that should get the AI to fire a bit farther out, but the missile should still have enough energy to be a threat. Obviously it's not a permanent fix though.

[Raidhen]

1 hour ago, phantom0gritz said:

 

 

I think I get what you're trying to say but from what I understand the missile's capabilities are the same where it's shot from the HB F-14 or the ED one.

In fact the AIM-54 use with the F-14A ED version is not the same as those use with HB F-14s (you can check by looking at the FM, top speed and the drag for example), I think when ED took the lead on the weapons they didn't merged the AIM-54 family leaving the old AIM-54 with the F-14A ED version.

[phantom0gritz]

Did not know that.  Good to know.  Hopefully it will get fixed soon.  The whole draw of the 54 is its range, regardless of a hit.  If the AI won't utilize it then the F-14 is, not pointless, but severely limited. 

[captain_dalan]

The missiles that the HB and ED F-14's use are definitely not the same, but that doesn't explain the difference in ranges at which both planes engage. I setup a small mission just a while ago just so i could watch planes shooting at each other. I made two scenarios, an ACE HB F-14A with AIM-54C VS an ACE MiG-31 with R33's and an ACE ED F-14A with AIM-54C VS an ACE MiG-31 with R33's.  Both planes started at 25000ft ASL, some 80NM from each other, doing roughly 450 knots. All planes set to fighter sweep mission.

The MiG and the ED F-14A both engaged and fired at one another from about 65 nautical miles away. Sometimes one would win, sometimes the other, but they fired practically at the same time. The HB F-14 refused to engage even at 30 miles away. That can't be the missile, as Jester (The AI RIO) himself would advise engagement at around 40 miles at these altitudes. And mind, both planes would accelerate to over 800 knots for this. The HB one just wouldn't not fire unless extremely close. So it must be an AI thing, i.e. i think the MiG-31 and the ED F-14A use a different AI then the HB F-14. Or the same AI, but different data base for its decision making.

Either way, this makes the HB F-14's much less useful for mission creators and mission creation where AI planes are needed or desired. Which is a shame, as the old ED F-14 model is more then obsolete (quality of the model wise) for quite some time now.

On 5/30/2021 at 1:01 AM, phantom0gritz said:

Did not know that.  Good to know.  Hopefully it will get fixed soon.  The whole draw of the 54 is its range, regardless of a hit.  If the AI won't utilize it then the F-14 is, not pointless, but severely limited. 

Has any ED representative ever addressed the issue? Has the issue even been reported previously? I was about to create a thread myself when i found this one.

Edited June 2, 2021 by captain_dalan

[phantom0gritz]

As far as I can find this is the only thread talking about it.

[captain_dalan]

11 hours ago, phantom0gritz said:

As far as I can find this is the only thread talking about it.

That's surprising. I would expect mission creators would be more bothered by this. I generally didn't pick it up much sooner, as most of my missions are of either BFM, or flight test nature, so AI behavior isn't that quick to spot, especially not with specific missions and BVR. I can see how PvP creators wouldn't notice it, but PvE MP or SP?

[phantom0gritz]

On 6/4/2021 at 9:58 AM, captain_dalan said:

I can see how PvP creators wouldn't notice it, but PvE MP or SP?

I can sort of see how, since my buddy and I would never have noticed if we weren't trying to force it to do the long shots.  We thought AI skill level, approach angle, type of target, and whatever else we could think of.  And if we hadn't been sitting there watching them duke it out from the F10 map we might never have noticed.  Just chucking it up to mixtures of whatnots as to why F-14's weren't just kicking but in kills where AI is concerned.

[captain_dalan]

Makes sense i guess. I often sit and watch AI's fighting it out among themselves, but as BFM is my primary focus, my missions almost never start with bandits more then 15NM away. But the first joust i composed between an F-15 and an F-14, and later on a MiG-31 and F-14, immediately revealed the flaw