Coming back to dcs with a budget

[scampaboy]

Hi 

 

I’m a returning pilot and looking at getting set up. 
 

I have been looking at either getting a new mb and cpu to go into an old case I have lying around or getting a second hand computer. 
 

if I were to buy second hand I could get a 1660 ti gpu but if I were to buy a new mb/cpu I would still need to get a second hand gpu. 
 

Is there a major difference between Ryzen 3 and 5 chips for DCS ? Is it better to go for a earlier generation 5/7 or get a newer generation 3 

 

Is it better to go amd for the better upgrade path, there are only skylake and kaby lake in my price range. 

 

My usage wouldn’t be much more than browsing and dcs I also have reasonable expectations regarding image quality etc. 

 

I have been looking at ryzen 7 2700 but that would leave me with a single stick rather than a Hotas 

 

I’m in the uk which affects prices but I have a budget of £600 with a firm cap of £700 depends on how much I get for my rc cars I’m selling 

[Thinder]

9 hours ago, scampaboy said:

Is there a major difference between Ryzen 3 and 5 chips for DCS ? Is it better to go for a earlier generation 5/7 or get a newer generation 3 

 

 

 Quite...

In testing programs like 3D Mark I got with the same settings <> 21% faster CPU performances from the 5600X compared to the 3600X, and this before I bounded the 5600X with better RAM which gives me an extra 6.04% at 4K.

Be aware that AMD are about to launch their next socket and that it will not be compatible with the actual Ryzen 5 series.

So if you really are on a budget but still want to get some decent performances from your system, (which I think is important with DCS), you should try to get your priorities right from the start:

Forget about OC, I get more than twice the improvement I can expect from my RAM kit than O.Cing my 5600X with a liquid cooling kit, for a similar expense (RAM premium <> £80), the CPU is still under guanranty so is the RAM, it is important to understand that if you O.C one or the other AMD offer no guaranty for them.

If you upgrade in let's say 3 years time, no need for splashing too much dosh into an expensive motherboard today since the socket will change (probably last 2021 quater), instead go for an MSI B450 GAMING PLUS MAX and update the BIOS: 7B86vHB1(Beta version) BIOS, downloadable from this motherboard support page. You can find them for as low as £69.99 and it support the 5600X without any issues.

A Ryzen 5 5600X is good for gaming in general, everyone owning one seems to be pleased with them but to take advantage of the 5600X architecture you need to bound a good RAM to it, because this processor is optimized for low latency and the recommanded frequency is  3200MHz.

Another important point here: Above this frequency, the CPU controller can't handle more than 2 ranks, you shouldn't go above 2 ranks is you use a higher frequency and is you use 2 X 2 ranks, limit the frequency to  3200MHz, passed those limitations, the CPU will throttle back under load.

This is a controller limit valid for both AMD and Intel CPUs.

So with that in hand you can see that if you chose to go with AMD, your best options is  similar to the one I use; MSI B450 GAMING PLUS MAX and updated BIOS, 4 X Cl14. 1 rank, 3200MHz RAM kit (don't buy two separate kits as their chips can differ from batch to batch), Ryzen 5 5600X with good cooling (I use the Artic Freezer 7X and it's cheap and good but still try to provide proper airflow inside of your case).

For the CPU, if you're in the UK you can buy a  2 years guaranteed GPU from CEX, I'm delighted with my 1080Ti I got from them.

#

G.SKILL TridentZ RGB Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Desktop Memory Model F4-3200C14Q-32GTZR

 

Freezer 7 X

 

That's for the AMD CPU, for Intel some well informed players might be able to offer similar solutions.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Thinder

[scampaboy]

Hi 

Thanks I’m not really into overclocking myself. 
So whatever AMD I get I will be looking at a new motherboard if I want to upgrade in a year or two time? Is there a way if I don’t have a working cpu in the motherboard to update the bios of the motherboard because I don’t currently have a pc never mind a working cpu. 

I can get 3200 ram easily just not named brand would that make a difference? I have actually been looking at a ryzen 3300x has good single core speed. I can get that 16gb of 3200 ram and a board for £310

 

My other option is get a cheap dell 3090 with an old i7 for £150 ish and add a better gpu with the downside that when I upgrade I’ll have to buy a full system. 

[LucShep]

DCS 2.7 is very CPU, GPU and RAM intensive, and you want to ensure highest framerate and least stuttering issues possible.
I'm not sure how far £700 can get you, considering it'll have to include not just the GPU but also the CPU, motherboard, and possibly RAM as well.


First, on the CPU front:

From past experiences, I'd suggest to skip Ryzen's 1st and 2nd gen (like that R7 2700) altogheter, no matter how tempting those seem now at low prices.
Those 1st and 2nd gen Ryzen processors have very noticeable issues with Infinity Fabric Latency and Bandwidth, as well as lower clocks, and that's not something that can be mitigated with expensive high-speed low-latency RAM (like done with later gen Ryzen CPUs).

For DCS (and gaming in general), the Intel processors of same time period (7th, 8th and 9th gen) have much, much higher performance (versus 1st and 2nd Ryzen CPUs).

For example, the i5 8600K and i5 9600K on a Z390 motherboard make far better sense for DCS (far stronger than Ryzen 2700 for DCS, and a better deal than an i7 7700K).
These are still pretty darn good, even more so if overclocked. The thing is.... these CPUs have no hyper-threading (6-core, 6-thread CPUs) and becoming obsolete against current market of same segment. But that can also be used in your favor, as argument for price adjustment, if buying from private sellers.

Only go for the Intel i5 8600K or 9600K if it's really affordable (£100 and below for the CPU, and £100 and below for Z390 motherboard).

Otherwise, if buying new, I'd get an Intel i5 10400F (£115) with the cheapest Z490 motherboard you can find (around £115). This is less expensive and just as good, if not beter (also far more RAM compatible) than the next alternative, the Ryzen 5 3600 with MSI B450 Max motherboard.

For RAM memory, any 16GB (2x 8GB) DDR4 3200 CL16 kit (or 3000 CL15 if cheaper), at about £65, will do great on either case. 
Of course 32GB (2x 16GB) would be better, but that's also double the price.

 

 

Second, on the GPU front:

Currently, anyone building a gaming rig is screwed with these stupid high prices (thanks scalpers and miners!), doesn't matter if it's new or used parts.

But still, I'd rather get a GTX1080 used than a brand new GTX1660Ti. In any case, these are the least I'd recommend for DCS.
 

The GTX1080 is not only slightly faster than the GTX1660Ti, the former also has 8GB of video ram (VRAM), against 6GB of the latter. And that can make a pretty big difference for DCS, which easily eats upwards of 6GB of VRAM.

Unfortunately, with GPU prices messed up as they are today, I doubt any of these two will be found below £300, but sometimes deals appear.

Edited July 24, 2021 by LucShep

[scampaboy]

Thanks for the advice I’ll reflect on it and let you know how I get on 

[Thinder]

1 hour ago, scampaboy said:

Hi 

Thanks I’m not really into overclocking myself. 
So whatever AMD I get I will be looking at a new motherboard if I want to upgrade in a year or two time? Is there a way if I don’t have a working cpu in the motherboard to update the bios of the motherboard because I don’t currently have a pc never mind a working cpu. 

I can get 3200 ram easily just not named brand would that make a difference? I have actually been looking at a ryzen 3300x has good single core speed. I can get that 16gb of 3200 ram and a board for £310

 

My other option is get a cheap dell 3090 with an old i7 for £150 ish and add a better gpu with the downside that when I upgrade I’ll have to buy a full system. 

 

The brand doesn't really matter for as long as it is Cl14 and one rank, 3200MHz. I think more than one manufacturer (like Corsair) are making those, and they also use B-Die chips which doesn't really offer more performances but a much more stable chips material and tighter frequencies control for those wanting to O.C their RAM kit.

 

16gb of 3200 ram and a board for £310 doesn't look like a very good deal to me, Newegg sales their 32GB kit for $334.99, £243.68, for £313.67 you have the MSI motherboard on top.

https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820232488?Item=N82E16820232488

https://www.cclonline.com/product/293003/B450-GAMING-PLUS-MAX/Motherboards/MSI-B450-GAMING-PLUS-MAX-AMD-Socket-AM4-B450-Chipset-ATX-Motherboard/MBD2684/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9O6HBhCrARIsADx5qCR9gU6mhcNy8HnAQ6wADCpJxyJIi-i07tKtxH7d-qJa3R0sOd7dSxwaAjvCEALw_wcB

 

The problem people have is that the importance of lower latency RAM is far too much underestimated, it's when systems are suffering from CPUs throttling back or high frame time that they face it and in DCS it is not so uncommon because the CPUs are pushed to their limits more often than none and RAM not always properly bounded to the CPU.

 

Advantages: Lower Latency. NO throttling back under load. Use of rank interleaving. Consistency of performances only limited by thermal load and CPU-to-GPU bound.

 

Just to give you an idea here are the results of the tests I conducted with the same settings with just a change of RAM from the Crucial CL16/2 ranks 3200MHz:

(Crucial RAM first. G.GKILL second)

3D Mark Pro Fire Strike Ultra 4K gaming with DirectX 11

3840 x 2160 (16:9) (4K) MSAA x 2

MSI Afterburner ON. AMD Ryzen Master ON; Game mode.

>>>>>>

Graphics score: 6 496 vs 6 583. +1.33%
 
Physics score: 23 894 vs 25 339. + 6.04%

Combined score: 3 605 vs 3 654. + 1.35%.

>>>>>> 

If you keep in mind that your CPU is commanding its bandwidth to all buses and that even your GPU-to CPU bus would be affected if it throttle back, then add to this the higher latency of a Cl16 RAM kit, you can imagine what it can be when you try to play DCS in a complexe scenario.

 

I ran other tests with the same settings with CPU-Z and all my cores ran at 4598.93 MHz without O.C, which is impossible to achieve without a proper RAM-CPU bound due to the controller limitations, I'm quiete positive that this performance translates to DCS without any problem since there are NO bottlenecks there to force the CPU to throttle back under load.

 

I forgot, the 5600X is 11% faster on ONE core than the Intel I7-9700K both non O.C.

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Thinder

[scampaboy]

That’s a ryzen 3300x cpu  mb and ram for that price and I just noticed its even cheaper at CCL at £278
I appreciate the info about RAM and latency I will bear that in mind.

The link to the RAM if you go to the site and change delivery to UK it will show the real uk price after import taxes it’s £309. As much as the the figures are impressive I can’t afford a ryzen 5600 currently so it’s not part of the equation. 

The main things buy the right latency of RAM, avoid the earlier ryzen and it doesn’t matter about upgrade path anyway as there is another form factor coming out at the end of the year. 
 

This has pretty much made my decision for me I think I’m just going to go and get a cheap dell workstation with an i7 throw some cheap ram in to take it up to 16gb or 32 and spend the difference on a gpu if I’m going to be changing the motherboard anyway to upgrade. 

[LucShep]

The thing with the Dell workstations is that configuring them afterwards with new components can be a PITA, and rather expensive to upgrade in the long run.

They usually have proprietary motherboards and power supply units, and are sometimes even unable to have regular third parties components fitted into them. 

We're currently in a situation where the next generation of Intel and AMD will be totally new platforms (new socket motherboards and DDR5 RAM) either way.

But with any current PC you can always get more RAM, fit more (or a bigger) SSDs, new GPU, PSU, etc, if it gets to be necessary later.
 

Haggling and hunting used (or new) parts to build affordable gaming systems is rather common where I am (economical issues for everyone here), and it can actually be a lot of fun (check Brian's TechYesCity , who made a channel around that), also to get your friends, and their friends, into PC gaming.

Plenty deals to build a complete system on your own from the ground up, so long as you're pacient (it takes time) and also computer savy (you need to handle the parts and know what's good and not).

If that's not your case, then you're unfortunately restricted to pre-build full systems.

Buying a brand new one right now for DCS, translates (at minimum) into a system based on GTX1660 Super, 500GB+SSD, Intel i5 10400F (or Ryzen 5 3600) CPU, with 16GB RAM.
Yes, not "outstanding" systems at all, and won't guarantee you clean performance of DCS on anything above 1080P resolutions, but they'll do the job.

These are £850 (+/-), so above your maximum budget but, to get back into the hobby, the least expensive brand new full systems are like these:

• ERAZER ENGINEER P10 Intel Core i5-10400F 16 GB 1 TB SSD GTX 1660 Super Gaming Desktop - Amazon.co.uk
• Horizon 5 Gaming PC Intel 10400F | 16GB DDR4 | GTX 1660 SUPER | 480GB SATA SSD | 1TB HDD | CCL Computers (cclonline.com)
• Gaming PC with NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER & Intel Core i5 10400F LN102884 - S1660SI594 | SCAN UK
• Gaming PC with NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER & AMD Ryzen 5 3600 LN102880 - S1660SR536 | SCAN UK
• ADMI Gaming PC: Ryzen 3600 | RTX 2060 6GB | 16GB DDR4 | 1TB SSD | 550W PSU | RGB Gaming Case | WIFI | Windows 10 - ADMI (amazon.co.uk)

 

Yes, you may find pre-build systems slightly cheaper with Intel i3 10100F or Ryzen R3 3300X, but the difference in total price is not worth it, IMHO.

Edited July 24, 2021 by LucShep

[Thinder]

4 hours ago, scampaboy said:

That’s a ryzen 3300x cpu  mb and ram for that price and I just noticed its even cheaper at CCL at £278
I appreciate the info about RAM and latency I will bear that in mind.

The link to the RAM if you go to the site and change delivery to UK it will show the real uk price after import taxes it’s £309. As much as the the figures are impressive I can’t afford a ryzen 5600 currently so it’s not part of the equation. 

The main things buy the right latency of RAM, avoid the earlier ryzen and it doesn’t matter about upgrade path anyway as there is another form factor coming out at the end of the year. 
 

This has pretty much made my decision for me I think I’m just going to go and get a cheap dell workstation with an i7 throw some cheap ram in to take it up to 16gb or 32 and spend the difference on a gpu if I’m going to be changing the motherboard anyway to upgrade. 

 

If you're in the UK, you can buy a 3600X new or second hand (2 years guaranty) from CEX and then upgrade to a 5600X when you can afford it, you still can sell your 3600X and later 5600X to CEX, which is what I always do, just make sure they are in a good state so that they pass their tests.

CEX AMD Ryzen 5 3600X (6C/12T @ 3.8Ghz) AM4 £180.00

 

The main thing being the RAM, if you go this path anyway your PC will last you a few years and still provide you with good performances until the time you decide to upgrade to the next Gen, but you won't have to pay the premium for the new generation of AMD processors, not to mention the motherboard.

 

At the end of the day it's your choice and I believe that with a little research you can find the best solution at the lowest price.

 

I started upgrading my PC in May 2020 with a Radeon RX 5500 XT MECH 8G OC which I exchanged (+ cash) to CEX for an EVGA GEFORCE 1080 Ti, after purchasing the B450, the 3600X and the Crucial RAM, then later again, the 5600X and the G.Skill RAM in January 2021. Now I think that my two best purchase were the B450 and the G.Skill RAM.

 

You can see my specs are very different today but it took me month, resale and exchange to get there, and yet my PC is only mid-range, with good performances thanks to optimization, good bounding and room for improvement, in particular the GPU, the 5600X can handle a much stronger card than the 1080Ti and still not create a bottleneck.

https://pc-builds.com/calculator/Ryzen_5_5600X/GeForce_RTX_3080/10f1748A/32/100/

 

So you could do the same over a year, but one thing for sure, you will notice the difference between the 3600X and 5600X, the 3600X is still a Ryzen 5 and it will also beneficiate from a good Cl 14/1 rank 3200MHz RAM because of a similar controller limitations to the 5600X but not offer as much gain because of a slightly less advanced architecture.

 

With this method of purchase and resale, you can lower the cost of an upgrade dramatically, I am not sure if the 3600X will satisfy you entirely as early as you start pushing the settings in DCS because at the end of the day, it still is way slower, but considering the cost, it is a good stop gap.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Thinder