AIM-54 vs R-33

[captain_dalan]

12 hours ago, Spurts said:

Why am I not surprised you also defeated them? 

It's not that hard really. It just takes some practice

[Strider21]

15 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Here is a little video i made for this topic. I did everything (well almost everything) wrong here, except execute the cranks. Even in the F-14A (which means no going past mach 1), without target size set to large, using the AIM-54C (inferior to mk60 A's) AND wasting my shot by firing too early, i still get inside visual range with the MiG-31, set to ACE, armed with 4 R-33's. I did this from the first try, in 2AM, with 2 glasses of rum inside me. On the 2nd try i shot the thing down from 48NM away. So..... yea...... practice your time tables and cranks mate....
 

 

 

Thank you for the time taken to post the video. 

 

What is the time table (timeline?) you are using? What do you consider a MAR for the R-33? I agree 1v1 isn't that difficult. Even 1v2 is doable but it can result in needing to defend a whole bunch of missiles. Launch and Leave BVR timelines are designed around the ability to continuously assess the engagement and then abort if the situation changes or you no longer have the advantage. Correct me if I am wrong but in your video you essentially have to commit to the merge? Against all other threats in the F-14 you have the time and space to abort? I guess the crux of my point is that with the R-33 performance advantage you are saying you essentially you need to work to towards the WVR engagement or least within the MAR and by and large disregard launch and leave tactics. 

 

In situations like a liberation campaign where you are flying with the AI Wingman against a 2-ship of MIg-31s and potentially other threats, IMHO, this makes the Mig-31 engagement more challenging than all other threats. 

 

 Attached are a couple successful engagements 1v2 against ACE AI the second required a defense against 6xmissiles, which honestly I don't think is a great tactic as if you mess up any of those you are going to get hit. 

Tacview-20210802-142746-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20210802-143827-DCS-F-14 vs Mig31x2 BVR.zip.acmi

Edited August 7, 2021 by Strider21

[captain_dalan]

8 hours ago, Strider21 said:

 

1. What is the time table (timeline?) you are using?

2. What do you consider a MAR for the R-33?

3. I agree 1v1 isn't that difficult. Even 1v2 is doable but it can result in needing to defend a whole bunch of missiles. Launch and Leave BVR timelines are designed around the ability to continuously assess the engagement and then abort if the situation changes or you no longer have the advantage.

4. Correct me if I am wrong but in your video you essentially have to commit to the merge?

5. Against all other threats in the F-14 you have the time and space to abort? I guess the crux of my point is that with the R-33 performance advantage you are saying you essentially you need to work to towards the WVR engagement or least within the MAR and by and large disregard launch and leave tactics. 

 

Tacview-20210802-142746-DCS.zip.acmi 296.11 kB · 0 downloads Tacview-20210802-143827-DCS-F-14 vs Mig31x2 BVR.zip.acmi 603.07 kB · 0 downloads

 

1. It will depend on mach and altitude. I can't and won't reveal my exact numbers (for obvious reasons), but for the above example, try something like 10-12s  offsets from the moment you receive the launch warning and work from there. The key is to always "drag" the missile around, always making it work extra for every mile it gets closer to you. Try it in a mission then study your tackview. Repeat until you find what works best for you.

2. I don't even think about the MAR. Not in this kind of engagements that is. For one, the bandit is the one without FOX-3 capability here. He has to decide if he will defend or commit. My goal is to get one of Buffaloes to go active. After that, it's a lost fight for the Fox. The instant he turns cold or notches to defend his R-33's are trashed. The MAR is in this case a relict of bygone time when missiles went active off the rail (because of how short range they were) and you had the luxury of shooting and scooting ad infinitum. All the "BVR" fights were a series of point, shoot, break and reacquire if needed. Not wise in this case. If you turn cold on a bandit with longer sticks, longer legs and just right out faster then you, you're dead or out of the mission. 

3. 1v2 is indeed doable and practically the same as 1v1. In reality you should never do it alone, but alas, DCS wingmen in the F-14 are hard to motivate into taking AIM-54 action. Under most normal circumstances, they just refuse to engage with Phoenixes. I've done some experimenting, and it seams they are willing to use them (this may still need more attempts to make sure it works) if you order them to engage at extreme ranges. Essentially as soon as they can detect them. Even so, they will only use 1 Phoenix, most likely in STT mode. Here is a short demo for that. Just be ready to have to face them alone in case they refuse to act:
 

 
4. Actually no. In my video i end up in a merge because of extremely sloppy fencing that resulted in sub-optimal Phoenix employment. Had i done everything right, i would have scored a kill some 20-30NM from the bandit. However, a merge is actually a desired outcome against a target with longer sticks. Unless you can ambush him that is. Then go for that, but good luck doing that against an AI. So if the enemy can engage me from ranges longer then what i can, i am willing to take a merge as well. Especially against a MiG-31. He's helpless up close. 

5. Against other air targets, the situation is usually reversed. It is them who need to  "weave" their way through your missile curtain. At least the good ones will. Fortunately a vast majority will opt for more...... "conventional" approaches. So yes, you are right. I'm not a proponent of launch and leave. Maybe it's just me being too "green" or maybe it's me not being "indoctrinated" with the baggage that is DCS BVR, but i think there are a number of situations where the common DCS dogma is not just obsolete, it's actually harmful. Especially in cases that don't involve "bird watching" tactics. Or to say in other words, when you actually have a job to do and not play hide and seek or alternatively play for "scores".

If you want i can make another video, with "proper" missile employment. The tactics are the same, you just set your radar a bit different and you fire a bit closer.   

8 hours ago, Strider21 said:

I don't think is a great tactic as if you mess up any of those you are going to get hit.  

ADDENDUM:
Of course you gonna get hit. That's why you don't mess up. Think of it this way. The alternative is to turn cold and run. You'll survive maybe, unless the MiG runs you down. But let's say you survive. The strike package you were supposed to escort is now doomed. The carrier you were supposed to protect is now vulnerable to attack. So what good is your continuous survival if you don't even have a boat to return to? It's mission failed. 

[Spurts]

I agree.

[Shadowboy]

no need to do anything remotely challenging to defeat a R-33 now, ED updated them.

previously you had a hitrate of 70% at 30k mach 2.3 at a range of 77 miles (fired) and a total travel of 60 miles (bandit breaking at 20 miles, AI flown both planes).

now if you try to do the same thing the missile wont even travel a full 40 miles before getting aero braked and crashing into the ground.

Thanks ED

[Bruce_D]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:35 PM, Skysurfer said:

 

Jammer, off-angle press, turn in shoot, crank.

After the Mig-31 fires turn off the jammer, the R-33 goes after the jammer

[Southernbear]

The R-33 is similar to other missiles that have fallen by the wayside in ED's pursuit of accurate R-27, 77 and AMRAAM flight dynamics. For a long time the AIM-7s that weren't the MH suffered from this due to using ancient code because ED found most people played the F-18 and F-15 with AMRAAMs anyway in Multiplayer and the Viper can't load them. They have since fixed this issue and made the Sparrows a lot better but you still see such issues with other proprietary missiles such as the R-40 and R-33.

I've actually tested the R-33 using a mod that allowed me to fly the Mig-31 without relying on the AI...its battery life is ridiculous at something like 250 seconds and as a result at high alts (30,000ft+) I was getting kills with the R-33 at like 130-140nmi.

What makes the R-33 "balanced" is that ED's AI isn't that great either...you can see this with AI F-14 flights where most of the time they will fire their missiles at AMRAAM range even if their weapon greatly outranges it (F-14s firing off AIM-54Mk.60s at like 30-40nmi for example) and the same thing happens to the R-33...due to its battery life and drag issues it does mean its quite a deadly missile (since they've basically shotgunning you at NOE range).

Tell you what though, if you manage to get a nice script, all bets are off and those guys become really deadly...very fun to face in the Tomcat tbh...I remembered a while ago there was a server that would run a cheeky script for their flights of Mig-31s to the point where they would fly ontop of each other with about 3,000ft spacing so on radar their true numbers were secret until they were almost on top of you...made a very interesting fight for a friend one day in his Viper. 

 

6 hours ago, Shadowboy said:

no need to do anything remotely challenging to defeat a R-33 now, ED updated them.

previously you had a hitrate of 70% at 30k mach 2.3 at a range of 77 miles (fired) and a total travel of 60 miles (bandit breaking at 20 miles, AI flown both planes).

now if you try to do the same thing the missile wont even travel a full 40 miles before getting aero braked and crashing into the ground.

Thanks ED

Ah nvm good to see they finally fixed it then. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Southernbear