mirage doing tail slide?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

F-16 is not ill designed. F-16 is designed for specific purpose and it indeed fulfilled that purpose. F-16 is MiG-21 on steroids. F-16 was designed as inexpensive response to MiG-21. F-16 manufacturing was spread across many countries to cut the cost and to produce it in as much quantities as possible. Again, all of that to counter MiG-21. The only thing that kept F-16 in service is updated electronics.

 

Aerodynamically MiG-29, Su-27, F-18 and F-15 are way more advanced aircraft.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Groove

[GGTharos]

I don't see why you would say that ... the F-15 is actually a stable aircraft, where the F-16 isn't - and that makes it more advanced.

 

The F-15's stability is probably what prevents it from doing tail-slides and cobras, but that's just a guess on my part ... basically without a heavy tail it could 'spin out' in any direction.

[Teknetinium]

The point here is that F-16 never been bad or ill designed, In 70s it was the plain that could autoturn or outclimb anything, Its just Getting old, or the aerodynamic is not holding for today's demands.

 

Release of Mig-29A to counter F-16 reviled some different demands, if USAF wanted total air dominance.

And Vietnam was as prove to this problems that could occur if not having as good AOA as ur opponent, even whit better thrust.

whit other words American F-4 pilots were more then happy of mig-21 bad missile performance, knowing that soon enough Vietnam's technology will catch up.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Teknetinium

[RedTiger]

And Vietnam was as prove to this problems that could occur if not having as good AOA as ur opponent, even whit better thrust.

whit other words American F-4 pilots were more then happy of mig-21 bad missile performance, knowing that soon enough Vietnam's technology will catch up.

 

Ironically though, the USN had a good kill ratio in SEA after they wised up and started to train their guys how to fight the threat at hand. Guess how they did it? Surprise! Keep your energy up, don't get suckered into the turning fight, manuever out of plane, etc. etc. etc.

 

Make NO mistake, I do not like the F-4...at all. I'm not shy about making that known. There are bad things about it that are not its fault but that are just a product of the technology at the time and there are short commings due to the rules of engagement in Vietnam, yadda yadda yadda...I still don't like it. :P

[RedTiger]

I don't see why you would say that ... the F-15 is actually a stable aircraft, where the F-16 isn't - and that makes it more advanced.

 

Yes, and ironically, the MiG-29 is a stable aircraft. In terms of pure aerodynamic advancement I'd think the order would be more like F-15 -> F-16 -> MiG-29 -> Su-27, since that's also more or less the order those planes were developed. Yeah, there was some dual developing going on, but thats the order they were put into service. :)

[nscode]

whit other words American F-4 pilots were more then happy of mig-21 bad missile performance, knowing that soon enough Vietnam's technology will catch up.

 

No need to catch up. They just stoped launching missiles beyond Rmax

[GGTharos]

I'm sure there was a little more to it than that ;)

 

I found some vague reference to F-15FTU

 

at the F-15E FTU the tailslide was in the TR section of the syllabus

 

Sadly I am unable to confirm it and so I'm not terribly inclined to believe it just yet.

[GGTharos]

And here's why F-15's will not be seen doing tail-slides in air shows:

 

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zpJsyKETN8Y

 

Watch from 7:30. Nothing to do with engines or AoA ;)

[Pilotasso]

F-16 is not ill designed.

 

Aerodynamically MiG-29, Su-27, F-18 and F-15 are way more advanced aircraft.

 

Actualy the f-16 was more advanced than the F-15 and Mig-29 or any other aircraft at the time simply because it was the first fighter to have digital fly by wire. A standard that every designers aimed at achieving.

 

It doesnt mean its more capable though. For that you would have to compare all other features.

 

Neither the Mig or the hornet could outfly the F-16 (or vice versa) by any apreciative margin. It might have to do with the fact that the falcon manages to turn tight wereas the other planes have to pull more AOA degrees for the same efect (remenber, past 25 they dont provide usable lift).

 

While you have more AOA options in the fulcrum the falcon is much more responsive in every move it makes.

 

But this I already said, have to say again for those who jumped in the middle of the disscussion without reading whats behind. ;)

[mikoyan]

taken form alexander Zuyev "fulcrum"

"The instructor proceeded to note that the MIG-29 had a greatly improved hydraulic flight controls system that was augmented by a computerized cross-control system and devices that transferred primary control among the ailerons, rudders, and horizontal stabilizers during high-speed air combat maneuvers. I was just beginning to grasp the level of sophistication of the new plane.

"what about flight by wire controls?" another senior officer asked brusquely.

"The Mikoyan OKB is working on such a system for later models" the instructor explained.

Now a mayor broke in. "I understand the Sukhoi OKB already has fly-by-wire for their SU-27 ."

The instructor nodded patiently. The Sukhoi Design Bureau was renowned for its innovation. If it hadm't been suppressed by stalin after the war, Sukhoi probably would have surpassed Mikoyan.

He smiled." You fellows know those wizards in the OKBS," he said frankly. "If they added all their planned modifications and improvements to the first model of new aircraft, they couldn't keep their contract pipeline open.

[mikoyan]

Actualy the f-16 was more advanced than the F-15 and Mig-29 or any other aircraft at the time simply because it was the first fighter to have digital fly by wire. A standard that every designers aimed at achieving.

 

It doesnt mean its more capable though. For that you would have to compare all other features.

 

Neither the Mig or the hornet could outfly the F-16 (or vice versa) by any apreciative margin. It might have to do with the fact that the falcon manages to turn tight wereas the other planes have to pull more AOA degrees for the same efect (remenber, past 25 they dont provide usable lift).

 

While you have more AOA options in the fulcrum the falcon is much more responsive in every move it makes.

 

But this I already said, have to say again for those who jumped in the middle of the disscussion without reading whats behind. ;)

What about the lift produced by the lifting body of the mig?

[RedTiger]

taken form alexander Zuyev "fulcrum"

"The instructor proceeded to note that the MIG-29 had a greatly improved hydraulic flight controls system that was augmented by a computerized cross-control system and devices that transferred primary control among the ailerons, rudders, and horizontal stabilizers during high-speed air combat maneuvers. I was just beginning to grasp the level of sophistication of the new plane.

"what about flight by wire controls?" another senior officer asked brusquely.

"The Mikoyan OKB is working on such a system for later models" the instructor explained.

Now a mayor broke in. "I understand the Sukhoi OKB already has fly-by-wire for their SU-27 ."

The instructor nodded patiently. The Sukhoi Design Bureau was renowned for its innovation. If it hadm't been suppressed by stalin after the war, Sukhoi probably would have surpassed Mikoyan.

He smiled." You fellows know those wizards in the OKBS," he said frankly. "If they added all their planned modifications and improvements to the first model of new aircraft, they couldn't keep their contract pipeline open.

 

IIRC, what that instructor in Fulcrum is talking about is a system similar to what the Eagle has. The force needed by the pilot to move the stick remained constant even when subjected to things like high G.

Edited December 19, 2008 by RedTiger

[Fox511]

Guys!

Video at first post is not avaiable now.

Anyone have a alternative link to this video?

 

take a look at this video

[Fab]

2GGTharos:

Answer me a question: which characteristics is Su-27 superior of F15 in?

 

On topic: I had ran into some rumors of F-18 and F-16 being able to repeat this figure - will look for proof. But repeating and making it - are different things.

 

I know several F-16 pilots, I will ask em about the tailslide

:thumbup:

[mvsgas]

I know several F-16 pilots, I will ask em about the tailslide

:thumbup:

 

That was a 2008 post...I will dare to guess he has move on after eight years.:D

[dadunn1700]

I know for a fact the current F-15C/D models CAN do a tail slide. Not only that but it's one of the maneuvers taught.