F5 vs Mig 21 dogfighting discussion and tips

[jonatron5]

Full disclosure i'm a pretty poor dogfighter in general (I struggle to beat the AI on rookie)
So i wanted to make a few observations and open a discussion to try to learn some skills  to hopefully improve myself

 I've been flying the mig 21 exclusively  for a few years. and one of my usual matchups is against the f5. Well with the recent 2 week free trial of all the modules I decided I would sit in the F5 and see how things feel from the other side. and from a few brief encounters with the mig I have a few key takeaways I have discovered.

• The F5 is a baby to operate, I could take off and land it first time out (not the case for the mig at all lol)
• The F5 control panel is laid out in an extremely logical way that reduces my need to scan over instruments
• The F5 has greater inside visibility
• The F5 is far more agile than the mig and will out turn it every day.
• one thing that shocked me, the Mig21 is much more powerful than the f5, in prolonged dog fights I bleed energy in the f5 and the mig winds up with the edge on my tail
• following the previous, any time the mig decides to take the fight into the vertical, i've stopped even attempting to follow, instead I go level and fly circles untill he decides to come back down.
• The F5 has a much greater mission endurance than the mig, I have "won" several merges against the mig by surviving in the fight until he runs out of fuel

So my concluding thoughts on this match up are that the job of the F5 pilot should be to keep the mig in the horizontal fight, where as the mig should always go vertical to use its power to its advantage, Further, because of this advantage, in a prolonged fight(everything else being equal) the mig "should" come out on top, because it can simply generate more energy to fight with than the F5 can, it can simply elect not to engage and climb away from it, with the caveat that the f5 will outlast an individual mig with time on target.

I welcome any thoughts, advice observations, or even disagreements you might have.

[LowRider88]

On 12/28/2021 at 8:57 PM, jonatron5 said:

Full disclosure i'm a pretty poor dogfighter in general (I struggle to beat the AI on rookie)
So i wanted to make a few observations and open a discussion to try to learn some skills  to hopefully improve myself

 I've been flying the mig 21 exclusively  for a few years. and one of my usual matchups is against the f5. Well with the recent 2 week free trial of all the modules I decided I would sit in the F5 and see how things feel from the other side. and from a few brief encounters with the mig I have a few key takeaways I have discovered.

• The F5 is a baby to operate, I could take off and land it first time out (not the case for the mig at all lol)
• The F5 control panel is laid out in an extremely logical way that reduces my need to scan over instruments
• The F5 has greater inside visibility
• The F5 is far more agile than the mig and will out turn it every day.
• one thing that shocked me, the Mig21 is much more powerful than the f5, in prolonged dog fights I bleed energy in the f5 and the mig winds up with the edge on my tail
• following the previous, any time the mig decides to take the fight into the vertical, i've stopped even attempting to follow, instead I go level and fly circles untill he decides to come back down.
• The F5 has a much greater mission endurance than the mig, I have "won" several merges against the mig by surviving in the fight until he runs out of fuel

So my concluding thoughts on this match up are that the job of the F5 pilot should be to keep the mig in the horizontal fight, where as the mig should always go vertical to use its power to its advantage, Further, because of this advantage, in a prolonged fight(everything else being equal) the mig "should" come out on top, because it can simply generate more energy to fight with than the F5 can, it can simply elect not to engage and climb away from it, with the caveat that the f5 will outlast an individual mig with time on target.

I welcome any thoughts, advice observations, or even disagreements you might have.

Hi jonatron5,

For me the 2 main points for fighting the MiG-21 in an F-5 are:

- When the 21 goes vertical, use lap pursuit, I.e. Don't climb up to its level during the chase.  When it loops back down, use lead pursuit, I.e. Find a way to point the nose ahead of its pull up from its dive, in order to close the angle off your nose, for a better shot.

- In a rolling scissors, use your better maneuverability and speed retention in a turn to execute a tighter roll, I.e. Be inside his rolling scissors.  This is will also lead to a better shot opportunity.  This should be done less by pulling hard on the stick, but instead by picking a better line, i.e the same concept in the first point above with lead and lag pursuit.

 

Your post is interesting.  I have had the 21 for so long and never flown it because of the complicated and messy cockpit arrangement.

But because you mentioned you usually fight in the 21 against the 5, I got interested and took the time to learn the 21.

What I found is that I can get behind a 5 in a 21, and stay there, but it is hard to pull off a shot due to the Gs required to stay there in the chase, and the low muzzle velocity of the 23mm cannon does not allow the pipper to stay on target during the Gs, and the 5 is always just out of range.

Since you are an expert in the 21 vs 5, and since we are trading techniques, are you able to clarify how you can beat the 5 in a 21?  Are you able to pull off a guns kill, and if so, how do you get the piper on him while pulling Gs?  BTW, I was using "Trained" skill level for the 5.

Great talking to others here who also play against the AI

[DeltaMike]

Haha check out this vid.  In which a MIG-21 defeats an F-14 using a slick move.  That'll be your callsign, once you get that move down:  "SLICK!"   (I'm currently reading Peck's history of America's Secret MIG Squadron which is highly enjoyable.  Among other things, there's a great summary of the surprisingly rapid evolution from fluid-four to loose-deuce, which occurred during his watch.  One of these days I'm gonna start up constant-peg server...) 

I imagine that move is overkill vs a human piloted F5; first one to the top loses and the F5 gets there pretty quickly (in my hands anyway).  As for the AI... you know the problem with the AI, at first is its superhuman abilities.  Once you learn how to exploit that -- and it is exploitable -- you wind up having to forget everything you've learned and start all over again once you start flying against human opponents.   Same general principle applies vs FC3 modules; I personally feel it's best to seek out human opponents who fly full fidelity modules.  

Back when I "started over," I REALLY started over.  Looked at doghouse plots till I was cross-eyed.   Learned aerobatics in the Yak-52, TF-51, and C-101.  Mostly in the latter which is a fine trainer.  Being an Eastern Bloc sorta guy you might want to look at the L-39 instead, which I have not flown but I hear it's great.  Watched this series.  Read this book.  Watched the moustache man video.   Whole nine yards, and still have no idea what I'm doing.  But at least I know I have no idea what I'm doing.

Used to fly against a dude who went vertical at the merge every time.  Drove me absolutely bonkers.