BVR/BFM Tips for the Viper?

[Rook24]

Looking for some tips on the Viper when it comes to BVR/BFM. Transitioning from the Hornet to the Viper has been quite the handful as both birds handle extremely differently in terms of BFM and both have different fighting styles. I've spent quite a bit of time in the Viper and when I go up against a Hornet 9 times out of 10 I'm getting smoked. I try to keep my speed and energy up but the Hornet just always ends up on my six and stays there scoring a kill. Don't feel like I'm really learning much outside of the Hornet nose is quite scary.

What are some of the things I'd want to keep an eye on to set myself up for success? ideal merge speed, ideal speed or g's to manage in a fight. Stuff like that, apricate the responses! 



 

[Exorcet]

In BVR try to be high and fast, that's the F-16 advantage. You can break through transonic speed faster than anyone else and then climb to 40000+ ft at M 1.3. When you go defensive try to use mil power to save fuel as well. If you find the enemy too late to accelerate, just go into an aggressive climb, depending on range.

WVR, wait for the F-16's updated flight model. It will change things. The Hornet will still have better nose pointing but the F-16 will retain more energy and accelerate faster. AIM-9X fights will be about who sees who first, otherwise you want to enter the merge above corner speed and pull as hard as you can until you reach your max sustained turn rate.

[darkman222]

30 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

WVR, wait for the F-16's updated flight model.

Thats the best hint for today I hope that real world Viper tactics will start working after the update.

Apart from the update: The Viper is a 2 circle fighter. Dont go one circle, except with any other opponent than another Viper. You will lose against almost all the other aircraft in a one circle setup.

If a Mirage or Hornet goes up after merge: This is already a one circle setup. Extend or at least go oblique. But dont fall for getting tricked into a one circle fight.

Dont spent your engergy unless you are sure you will score a kill. Stay in lag pursuit as long as necessary. With the new Viper update you will be able to pull the bandit in the HUD when you gained some experience for when to spend your energy for a kill.

If you are not familiar with the energy fighter concept and 2 circle fights try to do so. Type in "dcs debrief" in youtube and watch the playlist. He has some good explanations online.

Or go to this channel, watch that video and look for other videos of this series labelled "BFM Lesson # xyz" Although its for WW2 birds, same rules still apply obviously.

Watch the 1 minute mark. This is what happens to you in the Viper against the Hornet if you follow him going up after merge. Hornet guys like to do it in the vertical to you. What happens is quite obvious when you watch it happen in a horizontal plane like he is explaining it here.

Edited March 17, 2022 by darkman222

[Rook24]

12 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Thats the best hint for today I hope that real world Viper tactics will start working after the update.

Apart from the update: The Viper is a 2 circle fighter. Dont go one circle, except with any other opponent than another Viper. You will lose against almost all the other aircraft in a one circle setup.

If a Mirage or Hornet goes up after merge: This is already a one circle setup. Extend or at least go oblique. But dont fall for getting tricked into a one circle fight.

Dont spent your engergy unless you are sure you will score a kill. Stay in lag pursuit as long as necessary. With the new Viper update you will be able to pull the bandit in the HUD when you gained some experience for when to spend your energy for a kill.

If you are not familiar with the energy fighter concept and 2 circle fights try to do so. Type in "dcs debrief" in youtube and watch the playlist. He has some good explanations online.

Or go to this channel, watch that video and look for other videos of this series labelled "BFM Lesson # xyz" Although its for WW2 birds, same rules still apply obviously.

 

 

That is one of the major flaws I have when it comes to fighting in the Viper, I always aim for 2 circle fights but often will get pulled into a 1 circle by going vertical with the Hornet or Mirage. Defiently have to work on winning the fight instead of forcing the fight. Thanks for the detailed response! 

[Glide]

Try JF-17's and Vipers on the Redfor team as well for a real challenge.

[Rook24]

33 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

In BVR try to be high and fast, that's the F-16 advantage. You can break through transonic speed faster than anyone else and then climb to 40000+ ft at M 1.3. When you go defensive try to use mil power to save fuel as well. If you find the enemy too late to accelerate, just go into an aggressive climb, depending on range.

WVR, wait for the F-16's updated flight model. It will change things. The Hornet will still have better nose pointing but the F-16 will retain more energy and accelerate faster. AIM-9X fights will be about who sees who first, otherwise you want to enter the merge above corner speed and pull as hard as you can until you reach your max sustained turn rate.

From what I'm reading the ideal corner speed on the F16 is around 450knots. So merge above 500knots, aim for the 2 circle and try to maintain 450 ? Have defiently been coming in way to hot on the merge.

[darkman222]

20 minutes ago, Rook24 said:

I always aim for 2 circle fights but often will get pulled into a 1 circle

If you have been tricked into a 1c. You can always abort and extend. If no heat seeking missiles are involved.

And dont just try stubbornly to conserve your energy. Also in a 2c you need to spend it. You need to spend always for a kill. But sometimes even to keep an advantage.

Edit: There are official numbers for the best turn rate and corner speed for the real Viper out. And you are right. But 420 kts works better for me. If you are  getting faster than 420 and approaching 470 kts try to gain some altitude with that excessive energy. Stay a little higher than the bandit. Sometimes that forces him to do stupid things.

And try to work on your energy management by using these oblique plane of motions. 30 -40 degrees above and below the horizon line. Sometimes your opponent loses control of his energy and messes up his turn and you will gain angles.

@GlideWhats that "Redfor team"? Is it a server?

Edited March 17, 2022 by darkman222

[Glide]

1 hour ago, darkman222 said:

Whats that "Redfor team"? Is it a server?

Sorry, Red Forces = Redfor. 

[WHOGX5]

2 hours ago, Rook24 said:

From what I'm reading the ideal corner speed on the F16 is around 450knots. So merge above 500knots, aim for the 2 circle and try to maintain 450 ? Have defiently been coming in way to hot on the merge.

The thing about the F-16 is that it doesn't have an ideal corner speed but rather a corner plateau. This means that from approximately 350-450 knots you will have just about the same sustained turn rate. Anything above or below will see your degrees per second decrease. So it's always good to enter a fight at about 450 knots and once in the fight, you can gradually bleed of airspeed to gain angles down to around 350 knots without loosing any real performance. Since the F-16 has such low drag and high thrust, once your down at around 350 you always have the option to ease your pull by a tiny, tiny amount and quite quickly regain your airspeed up towards 450 knots without loosing too many angles. You still have to be smart about when you bleed airspeed and when you regain it so you don't just do it haphazardly without really gaining anything from it.

[Rook24]

11 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

9G level gameplan till blackout.

Sounds about right. I'm always looking through a very small toilet paper roll going well above the corner speed trying to turn. 

[karasawa]

2 tips:

1) Never, never take wing pylons. Remove them MANUALLY (they are included by default even in the "clean" loadout). They are DRAGGY.

2) According to ED's measurement, the DCS viper is under-performing by about 5% at most altitudes, except between 10000 - 15000 feet. Between 10000 - 15000 feet is the sweet spot to max perform the viper.

Trust me, at 50% fuel, a clean viper can sustain 1-1.5 deg/sec faster than F/A-18, JF-17 and Mig-29 between 10000 or 15000 ft. keep your speed above Mach 0.7. This is the best BFM trick before the upcoming FM update.

Edited March 17, 2022 by karasawa