Mission 20 Bombs over Maykop feedback

[TAIPAN_]

I gotta say this is one crazy hard mission. That airbase is surrounded by ZSU which makes the Lo-Hi-Lo popup attack difficult, but not on their own as there's quite a few SAMs flying at me too. 

I did call in the SEAD on the F10 menu as soon as they were available, and flew under MIL power maybe 90% RPM on the assigned route. But the SEAD did not deal with the radar SAMs, was at least SA2 or SA6 still there. Also a Strela or some kind of other portable SAM maybe more. 

Maybe from some patches the SEAD is less effective or the SAMs are more dangerous since creating it.

Also curious because there seemed to be MiGs right there waiting for us, that our early warning did not advise until they were on us. Do they spawn in the air, or do they have to take off which would give time to hit the base before they get up?

It seemed like all 3 threats suddenly appeared at once as I popped up to attack. I'm past it now due to ticking "Invulnerable" for it, but curious about these things if it was intended to be so threat heavy with ineffective SEAD.

Cheers

[SorelRo]

SAM behavior, changed lately, you are right, the same with the F-4 AI. I'll review this one soon and push an update if needed.  

[Odessa]

One of that missions where you rely on your bots.
And your luck.
How I passed it -
1. Take only rockets. In Mission Planner you can change weapons. It is not cheat and allowed by creator
    Or you can just jettison bombs aterr take off.
    I even removed AIM-9s and took only  70% of fuel to be lighter
2. Wait a bit till F-4s really start to kill SAMs. You will hear it on the radio.
    I just flew slow from WP to WP.
3. Before your attack run  - ask your wing-man "Mission and rejoin".
    He will draw some attention of Air Defense.  
4. Fly really low with pre-flare. You will see missiles and AAA fire intended for you and you will be able to dodge (if you are lucky enough on that attempt).
 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Odessa

[SorelRo]

You can change your loadout anyway you can, that's why i put bombs and rockets, depending on what your streghts are. to me, from the IP flying as low as possible and as fast as possible is the way to go. one pass should deal with everything as they explode with more violence than normal in DCS. You may be caught in the explosion if you are not fast enough. 

[Joe1978]

 I'm a bit stuck on this mission. I have followed Odessa's advice but the F4s don't seem very effective at attacking SAMs and are usually shot down quickly.

With no top cover, the MiGs (piloted by Skynet) rush at us. My wing-man is shot down almost instantly by the SA6s or MiGs and although I can get close to the target (skimming the treetops) and I can rarely do an attack run without being shot down by the AAA (with sniper capabilities and and nerves of steel) or the SA6s.

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

Yet another luck-based mission. The Phantoms circle uselessly over the airbase, sometimes they kill or distract the SAMs, sometimes they don't. I would expect them to clean up the SAMs with Mavs and then help with SHORAD on the airfield. They don't even seem particularly eager to fight the MiGs. I hit the cargo planes with rockets (taking bombs on this one is just dumb), but the secondaries didn't seem to trigger.

This campaign needs a review, and not just due to scripting bugs, but due to bad mission design. In particular, the default loadout for all air to ground missions is very bad, but not only does the mission dialogue imply that's what we're supposed to fly with (either way, relying on changing loadouts in planner is not the right way to build a mission), the objectives and triggers seem to be based on that. Repetitive (and unrealistic) radio messages with "navigation help" do not make it better, and neither does navigating by arbitrary "waypoints" along an arbitrary route. It's as if the missions were meant to rely on the F10 map. In reality, such a mission would've been flown by referencing landmarks (such as rivers and towns), which are plentiful in the area.

Edited May 1 by Dragon1-1

[SorelRo]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

 The Phantoms circle uselessly over the airbase, sometimes they kill or distract the SAMs, sometimes they don't.

 

It's interesting, as in my test runs they always go for the target, I'll test and see if anything changed in the AI behavior. 

 

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

This campaign needs a review, and not just due to scripting bugs, but due to bad mission design. In particular, the default loadout for all air to ground missions is very bad, but not only does the mission dialogue imply that's what we're supposed to fly with (either way, relying on changing loadouts in planner is not the right way to build a mission), the objectives and triggers seem to be based on that. Repetitive (and unrealistic) radio messages with "navigation help" do not make it better, and neither does navigating by arbitrary "waypoints" along an arbitrary route. It's as if the missions were meant to rely on the F10 map. In reality, such a mission would've been flown by referencing landmarks (such as rivers and towns), which are plentiful in the area.

Once again, it's a bit hard to understand your pain. If you want to tear this apart, be my guest, but, navigational aids are not helpful, however it seems to me that you are struggling with the navigation, as for that mission it is fairly easy to navigate, and your waypoints are villages, quite easy to spot them. As for the loadout, i would rather have the player being able to opt out between rockets and bombs and use whatever they feel more comfortable with. The plane in DCS is capable of handling both. 

[Dragon1-1]

I'm not struggling with navigation, I'm just annoyed by the constant "we're off course!" reminders, whenever I deviate from the line. They seem to trigger whenever I'm not exactly on the line between two waypoints, which is unreasonable to expect when flying VFR. The only way to fly to follow waypoints that tightly is using an INS. In the F-5, you may be following a river, or simply turning a bit sharper or less sharp when you overfly a turn point, leading to you being a bit offset, but otherwise flying a proper course. Also, you need to get fairly close to waypoint for triggers to fire. Save for the callouts, navigation is not too bad on this mission, but it just feels like it was made for a plane with INS.

58 minutes ago, SorelRo said:

As for the loadout, i would rather have the player being able to opt out between rockets and bombs and use whatever they feel more comfortable with. The plane in DCS is capable of handling both. 

It is capable of carrying both, sure, but it's not very realistic for it to be doing so. The loadout should be set up according to what's the best tool to complete the mission, and the mission set up according to the intended loadout. That's how every other DCS campaign does this. Also, consider that with rockets and bombs, you can't really get up to 400kts (minimum speed at which bombing tables start) without afterburner. Using afterburner in presence of IR SAMs is a bad idea. While the loadout can be altered (and that's what I'm doing to make those missions play somewhat better), most people won't do that because in nearly every other campaign, doing that will break triggers. 

[Dragon1-1]

OK, so the stars aligned, Phantoms shacked the SA-6 radar (but not SA-2, thankfully I was so low it was no factor), and I managed to dodge the SHORAD. Big bang, got told to RTB. Wingman got shot down delaying the MiGs. Landed back at base, the mission did not proceed. So that's another bug to be checked.

Rockets only works best on this one, BTW, particularly with pods set to ripple. They're draggy, but you can go fast, and the pods empty in a handful of shots. I did have a few rockets left (the ripple setting seems bugged, IIRC it should empty the pod with one trigger press), see if that could be a factor.

[SorelRo]

I'll check the score, the big bang should trigger the win, 

[Dragon1-1]

So I thought, but the next two missions seemed to have some trigger weirdness, too. I made a separate thread for M23, M22 also told me to support the ground troops (and I did, with all fifteen bullets I had left), but then seemed to get stuck. This seems to be affecting several missions in the campaign.

[Almighty]

I'm a bit lost on this one. I've hit the 4 transports described in the briefing and some of the MIGs on the ground. However, I only get a draw when I end the mission. What do I need to hit and how do I get the secondary explosion?

Edited May 4 by Almighty

[SorelRo]

Did the rest of the flight line go up in a big boom? 

[Almighty]

No. I lead with rockets and follow with bombs. I can see the damage to the transports from the rockets as I fly over. There are explosions from what I hit, but no chain reaction that sets off secondary explosions. 

[SorelRo]

9 minutes ago, Almighty said:

No. I lead with rockets and follow with bombs. I can see the damage to the transports from the rockets as I fly over. There are explosions from what I hit, but no chain reaction that sets off secondary explosions. 

Alright, so, i believe i know what's going on. I'll adjust and publish the mission on a new update. What version is this the FC or the full F-5? 

 

Cheers, 

SorelRo 

[Almighty]

Full F-5.

It's the first campaign I've done in DCS and I've enjoyed it so thanks. I hope you'll do another for the F-5 as it's such a great aircraft. It takes a lot of skill and is a great challenge.

[SorelRo]

1 hour ago, Almighty said:

Full F-5.

It's the first campaign I've done in DCS and I've enjoyed it so thanks. I hope you'll do another for the F-5 as it's such a great aircraft. It takes a lot of skill and is a great challenge.

I am considering it, it will be after F-4, the one that I'm very slowly working at right now, with all the other updates that I'm trying to push.