Super Taurus with F-16 Throttle? It can be done...but should it?

[DirtiByrd]

I bought the Super Taurus (hereafter referred to as Big T, Super T or Mr. T) with the intention of using it as much for the Viper as the Hornet. I've seen other threads that make mention of the adapter but so far no installs or reviews with this combo after the recently released the adapter. When I placed my order for the Super T, I also added the F-16EX bases+stick and F-16 Throttle converison kit and didn't think much about the lack of gouge on the combo until all of the parts arrived and it was time to set it all up. That's when I ran into the challenge. How exactly does it all fit together and work?

There is no manual that describes the combination nor thread I could find with photos or videos of the install. Only a 2D image on the product page with xrays of the assembled grip which are hard (for me) decipher. Decipher I did and was able to make the install happen. For everyone else's benefit, here are lots of photos of the conversion and some thoughts on the value of the conversion kit, as it is sold today.

First, let's take a look at the F-16 throttle grip as it comes from Winwing, specifically from the rear:

The imporant callout here is that none of the gray metal assembly is transferable to the Super T. That means no roller guide, no pinkie detent release and spring-loaded cam action. If you were considering purchasing this conversion to enjoy those ergonomic aspects, DO NOT BUY THIS CONVERSION. Instead, buy the ENTIRE Orion 2 Throttle with F-16 grip as a package. Otherwise, you are paying for a lot of money for parts and featuers that are now worthless.

If all you want is the F-16 aesthetic for your F/A-18 throttle base, please continue reading. 

The next step is to remove your F/A-18 throttle handles. 4 x 2.5mm hex nuts must be removed and each cable disconnected. To do this, split the throttles and remove the two pan head screws attaching each handle to the base:

Next, place both throttle arms back into the off detent and insert the adapter plate between them like this:

Next, insert the 2 x 3mm screw, washers and nuts from the right-side throttle handle, through the adapter and out the left-side throttle handle holes. The screws can be inserted from the other side if oyu like, but this will make adjusting the angle of the throttle grip more difficult. If you want the grip to freely move up and down in the channel, do not tighten down the nuts all the way. 

Here is an image of the adapter in place, with the screws mounted in the opposite direction as I have done it:

Now it is time to disassemble the F-16 throttle grip from the Orion 2 assembly. This involes removing the 3 x 4mm hex bolts seen here:

Unclip the grip's wire lead from the Orion mounting assembly and you will have something like this:

Quick note on the captured bolts seen in this picture. Winwing only secures these nuts into the grooves with a tiny bit of silicone at the top. During my first disassembly the silicone cap came off two of the nuts. I had to super glue the nuts into the grooves to reassemle the grip and attach it to the Super T adapter.

The next step is to thread the grip wire lead through the large hole at the back of the adapter and connect the lead to the right-side (3-pin) throttle handle plug:

Last, re-use 2 x 4mm bolts you removed from the Orion subassembly to attach the grip to the adapter as shown:

The completed assembly looks like this:

Notice the left-side loose cable and the right-side cable just laying on the switch in the OFF position. These will need to be zip tied as there is not a clean way to police them up.

Problems inherent this setup/design:

• The ergonomics are also extremely awkward. You will need to remove the finger-lifts entiorely, or completely break your grip to get the throttle into the IDLE detent. Not a great experience either way
• Because the third bolt is missing from the mount, it is possible to accidentally rotate the grip off the adapter mount if there is no play in the adapter bolts. The loose play in the grip to prevent this makes everything feel janky and awkward.
• Aesthetics are trash. Loose wires, visible mounting hardware. No guide rail or pinky detent functionality. 

So there you have it - an F-16 throttle grip on your F/A-18 base. Ugly as sin? Definitely. Worth the cost of the current Orion 2 upgrade package ($359 USD shipped)?? Definitely NOT.

I immediately removed it and replaced it with the F/A-18 throttle grips. I will eventually buy an Orion base and have a dedicated F-16 control suite but having to swap entire throttler ergos to do so is unfortunate. 

If you are reading this and don't have any legacy Winwing hardware yet, buy the Super T if you love the Hornet and don't care about HOTAS immersion or compatability with other Winwing gear. It is not forward compatible with Orion 2 designs in a way that you will appreciate later. I would rather have paid $600 for a Super-Sized F-16 version of the Super Taurus than waste money on this half-baked "conversion". When I finally pay to mount this grip onto an Orion base, I will have also paid almost $200USD more than if I had just bought the Orion 2 to begin with. Live and learn I suppose.

Despite this poor choice on my part, I really do love the Winwing, the Super Taurus and the F-16 throttle grip. I can't wait to use it when I get around to mounting it on an Orion. I am sure they will produce better options for us in the future.

If I ever get around to re-mounting the grip and flying with it, I'll produce a full video review. Leave a comment below if you would like to watch a video like that.

[RogueSqdn]

I ran the cable around the front of the throttles and stuck a standoff onto the left throttle arm that I ran a zip tie through to secure the cable.

After looking at the way I have it, I see what you mean about running the bolts in from the right side.

As for the nuts that fall out of the grip, I put them back in and put in some hot glue to hold them in place.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by RogueSqdn

[DirtiByrd]

On 8/16/2022 at 2:51 PM, RogueSqdn said:

I ran the cable around the front of the throttles and stuck a standoff onto the left throttle arm that I ran a zip tie through to secure the cable.

After looking at the way I have it, I see what you mean about running the bolts in from the right side.

As for the nuts that fall out of the grip, I put them back in and put in some hot glue to hold them in place.

Nice workaround, and thanks for the  tip on the hot glue! Do you like the F16 grip over the F18? What are your pros & cons with this setup?

[RogueSqdn]

More and more I'm becoming a cockpit minimalist.  With PointCTRL, there's not a need to have any toggle switches, and I don't like having to sync them and hunt for them without seeing them.  

So that being said, I don't even use the F/A-18 switch panel that comes with the Super Taurus.  I do, however, have a pair of Koolertron programmable keypads, one set behind the throttle and another behind the FSSB R3L. 

The right hand one is used for cockpit seat position, scratchpad mod, and a few other non-flight controls, as well as the ejection seat command (requires tapping two non-adjacent keys at the same time). 

The left hand one is used for panel controls (TEST panel, MANUAL PITCH OVERRIDE, DBU, YAW TRIM, and EXT LIGHTING), depending on what modifier I'm holding (I have two modifiers, pressing left or right on the Expand/FOV switch - the Realsimulator F16SGRH CE has this switch as a three-way hat).  I also use the two hidden buttons underneath the throttle grip as modifiers.

Losing the Orion's F-16 throttle rail bothers me a lot less than I thought it would.  I'm fine using the F-16 grip with it.  Having gotten the original F-16 TQS in the early 90s, then the Cougar, I've long had an attachment to that grip, and the F-16 has always been my favorite aircraft (I grew up wearing out copies of Iron Eagle in the 80s and then flying Falcon 3.0 and then 4.0).

The only real con using this setup is that if I want to switch to the Hornet grips, I have to cut that zip tie.  However, I've flown nothing but the Viper in DCS for the entire year.

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by RogueSqdn

[DirtiByrd]

On 8/18/2022 at 3:14 PM, RogueSqdn said:

So that being said, I don't even use the F/A-18 switch panel that comes with the Super Taurus. 

Very nice Viper pit! Hadn't considered dropping the switch panel, and in your case that makes a lot of sense. I hope WW comes out with a Taurus panel and rail for the F16. I would definitely jump at it if they did.

I think for now, I am going to build out my pit around the F/A-18 as a primaryt control set and put a second Orion 2 TQ offset and behind the Super T to use the F-16 as well as collectives. I have an alumin extrusion cockpit as well so I could mount it on a swing-away bar when not in use.

You have given me a lot to consider, thank you!

[RogueSqdn]

Thank you.  The cockpit is a Monstertech MTS.  I have a center stick attachment also, which has the Virpil T-50CM2 w/200mm extension and the Realsimulator F18CGRH grip.  

I've built multiple pits myself over the years, and also had an Obutto R3volution for about 5 years.  Three years ago, I got an MTX cockpit but had to make multiple mods to make it work for me.  When the MTS and MPS seat were announced, I jumped at it, and it's worked out very well for me.  I don't have to spend time fixing things and can instead concentrate on flying.

[Dogmanbird]

its a very smart & refined looking setup 

i also agree that it looks classier without the switch panel

Edited August 25, 2022 by Dogmanbird

[Dogmanbird]

RogueSqdn - with your koolertrons, are they operating as a conventional keyboard, but with the buttons mapped, or have you found a way to have it behave as USB game device buttons? (ideally, without extra software running?)

I have the 48 key versions and was hoping they could behave as usb game device buttons but unfortunately the option isn't offered in it's programming software. It's been a bit of a pain having to map keyboard keys, particularly finding combinations that are not already used by the operating system. Whilst in VR, if I leave the multiplayer chat messaging open, the buttons don't function (wasted many bombing runs wondering why things wouldn't turn on), and if DCS isn't in focus, I inadvertently open browsers, shut down windows or order cup of coffee 

null

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Dogmanbird

[RogueSqdn]

I have them programmed with keystrokes only.

[Dogmanbird]

ok, thanks for the reply

[Sacarino111]

On 8/25/2022 at 3:29 AM, Dogmanbird said:

RogueSqdn - with your koolertrons, are they operating as a conventional keyboard, but with the buttons mapped, or have you found a way to have it behave as USB game device buttons? (ideally, without extra software running?)

I have the 48 key versions and was hoping they could behave as usb game device buttons but unfortunately the option isn't offered in it's programming software. It's been a bit of a pain having to map keyboard keys, particularly finding combinations that are not already used by the operating system. Whilst in VR, if I leave the multiplayer chat messaging open, the buttons don't function (wasted many bombing runs wondering why things wouldn't turn on), and if DCS isn't in focus, I inadvertently open browsers, shut down windows or order cup of coffee 

null

 

 

Hi.

Check this link

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/97434-an-arduino-usb-hid-controller-composite-usb-controller

 It is fairly easy to do , ( did it, everybody can...)

The shape and buttons are up to you 

.

Saludos.

Saca111

[Dogmanbird]

Hi Saca111,

Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't read right through it but assume it's to build a button matrix with the arduino? I already had the two koolertrons so was hoping to to make use of them. 

I'm not sure if they output ps2, but if they do I may be able to use a promicro as a translator to game buttons.

If koolertron doesn't use ps2 output, maybe I can use a shield.  Saca111 - have you ever tried fitting a usb shield to a promicro or leonardo?

Cheers

[Xup]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:14 PM, RogueSqdn said:

More and more I'm becoming a cockpit minimalist.  With PointCTRL, there's not a need to have any toggle switches, and I don't like having to sync them and hunt for them without seeing them.  

So that being said, I don't even use the F/A-18 switch panel that comes with the Super Taurus.  I do, however, have a pair of Koolertron programmable keypads, one set behind the throttle and another behind the FSSB R3L. 

The right hand one is used for cockpit seat position, scratchpad mod, and a few other non-flight controls, as well as the ejection seat command (requires tapping two non-adjacent keys at the same time). 

The left hand one is used for panel controls (TEST panel, MANUAL PITCH OVERRIDE, DBU, YAW TRIM, and EXT LIGHTING), depending on what modifier I'm holding (I have two modifiers, pressing left or right on the Expand/FOV switch - the Realsimulator F16SGRH CE has this switch as a three-way hat).  I also use the two hidden buttons underneath the throttle grip as modifiers.

Losing the Orion's F-16 throttle rail bothers me a lot less than I thought it would.  I'm fine using the F-16 grip with it.  Having gotten the original F-16 TQS in the early 90s, then the Cougar, I've long had an attachment to that grip, and the F-16 has always been my favorite aircraft (I grew up wearing out copies of Iron Eagle in the 80s and then flying Falcon 3.0 and then 4.0).

The only real con using this setup is that if I want to switch to the Hornet grips, I have to cut that zip tie.  However, I've flown nothing but the Viper in DCS for the entire year.

 

 

The dark green seat cover, vibrating force feedback ?  and from where ?.

Great looking flight setup there so neat, not like mine at all!

[RogueSqdn]

It’s Andre’s JetSeat. I’m not using it right now (needed a comfort break). 
 

I hear it might not be available right now because of sanctions on trade with Russia, not sure, I haven’t really looked into it.