FC3 style J-11A later model or B upgrade/update/addition?

[FlankerFan35]

Hello, since you have said this J-11A is an early A is there a possibility of you upgrading this 11A to a late A or adding a late A or B? 

With the Eurofighter and F-15E around the corner Gen 4 red will be rendered unplayable in PvP and relegated to playing solo, Gen 1-3 or PvE only and this is quite sad. I only play PvP and would very much enjoy remaining competitive as DCS grows and evolves. This post is focused on A2A PvP relevance so I will not be referencing A2G.

 similar posts have been made but these threads are semi dead, and some were before EF/15E announcement

J-11A update/upgrade would include:

Cockpit: MFI-55 (unlikely)

N001VE radar: Increased track/lock range, improved look down performance, ability to fire on two targets at once with R-77.

MAWS: (requires more data as to capability) (unlikely with current cockpit)

J-11B early would include:

Type-1493 pulse-doppler radar (I believe that's the correct radar, feel free to correct): >150km search range, track 6-8 targets (down from 10 on J-11A), fire on four at once, PL-8/12 missiles.

MAWS: (see above)

ECM: Internal ECM installed removing the need for wingtip mounted pods. This ECM could remain the same strength as current, if need be, just as the RKL pods on the 11A as same strength as the Su-27 pods despite being more powerful in real life.

Engine: Most 11Bs use the WS-10, however due to the immaturity of Chinese engine tech early Bs use the same AL-31 as the 11A (WS-10A preferred but AL-31 acceptable)

Cockpit: 4-5 MFDs, new HUD (highly unlikely to be added but if not added would not be too sad, could be added later) 

 

A little more on the request.

First off thanks for reading, if these upgrades/updates were to be added it would be very nice, not only that but they would (J-11B more than A) rejuvenate Gen 4 RED AIR but open the doors to years down to the road additions to more modern A2A/2G weapons including but not limited to PL-10/15 A2A missiles, WS-10 engine, KL700B/KZ900 jamming pods and more as well as more monetary gain for Deka which is always a good thing for a major dev team.

 

 

Front and rear MAWS antennae.

 

 J-11B cockpit.

 

WS-10 engine.

[F-2]

19 minutes ago, FlankerFan35 said:

Hello, since you have said this J-11A is an early A is there a possibility of you upgrading this 11A to a late A or adding a late A or B? 

With the Eurofighter and F-15E around the corner Gen 4 red will be rendered unplayable in PvP and relegated to playing solo, Gen 1-3 or PvE only and this is quite sad. I only play PvP and would very much enjoy remaining competitive as DCS grows and evolves. This post is focused on A2A PvP relevance so I will not be referencing A2G.

 similar posts have been made but these threads are semi dead, and some were before EF/15E announcement

J-11A update/upgrade would include:

Cockpit: MFI-55 (unlikely)

N001VE radar: Increased track/lock range, improved look down performance, ability to fire on two targets at once with R-77.

MAWS: (requires more data as to capability) (unlikely with current cockpit)

J-11B early would include:

Type-1493 pulse-doppler radar (I believe that's the correct radar, feel free to correct): >150km search range, track 6-8 targets (down from 10 on J-11A), fire on four at once, PL-8/12 missiles.

MAWS: (see above)

ECM: Internal ECM installed removing the need for wingtip mounted pods. This ECM could remain the same strength as current, if need be, just as the RKL pods on the 11A as same strength as the Su-27 pods despite being more powerful in real life.

Engine: Most 11Bs use the WS-10, however due to the immaturity of Chinese engine tech early Bs use the same AL-31 as the 11A (WS-10A preferred but AL-31 acceptable)

Cockpit: 4-5 MFDs, new HUD (highly unlikely to be added but if not added would not be too sad, could be added later) 

 

A little more on the request.

First off thanks for reading, if these upgrades/updates were to be added it would be very nice, not only that but they would (J-11B more than A) rejuvenate Gen 4 RED AIR but open the doors to years down to the road additions to more modern A2A/2G weapons including but not limited to PL-10/15 A2A missiles, WS-10 engine, KL700B/KZ900 jamming pods and more as well as more monetary gain for Deka which is always a good thing for a major dev team.

 

 

Front and rear MAWS antennae.

 

 J-11B cockpit.

 

WS-10 engine.

They mentioned they didn’t have anything on the J-11B cockpit a while ago so I don’t think it’s likely to be in the cards.

 

Type-1493 Might be a Chinese development of Zhuk used on the MK2 so who knows.

 

they have some info on MFI-55 but not yet enough this seems to hold back their ambitions for the J-11

 

Hopefully they will eventually get what they need to upgrade the J-11 and build the MKK. I don’t think it’s an issue of them not wanting to do it rather data is still sparse.

[FlankerFan35]

4 minutes ago, F-2 said:

They mentioned they didn’t have anything on the J-11B cockpit a while ago so I don’t think it’s likely to be in the cards.

 

Type-1493 Might be a Chinese development of Zhuk used on the MK2 so who knows.

 

they have some info on MFI-55 but not yet enough this seems to hold back their ambitions for the J-11

 

Hopefully they will eventually get what they need to upgrade the J-11 and build the MKK. I don’t think it’s an issue of them not wanting to do it rather data is still sparse.

Hmm ok, could they not just do a late 11A since they claim early is the current model? few radar tweaks and TWS2 is all they'd need, MFI-55 would be missing sure, but RKL pod strength is also missing with no plans to fix so why not leave it out, its FC3 after all, I'd understand if it was FF. I'm sounding rather cross a few meaningless features like MFI in an FC3 level module would change nothing, who would be using terrain navigation in Growling Sidewinder server for example.

Edited August 13, 2022 by FlankerFan35

[F-2]

1 minute ago, FlankerFan35 said:

Hmm ok, could they not just do a late 11A since they claim early is the current model? few radar tweaks and TWS2 is all they'd need, MFI-55 would be missing sure, but RKL pod strength is also missing with no plans to fix so why not leave it out, its FC3 after all, I'd understand if it was FF.

I think the plan is for it to be semi clickable rather then FC3. I say let them do it on their own time since were still limited to R-77. If they get information on one of the later Su-30 radars that can fire the Pl-12 or the R-77-1 ever comes to the game that will be the more significant change.

[FlankerFan35]

2 minutes ago, F-2 said:

I think the plan is for it to be semi clickable rather then FC3. I say let them do it on their own time since were still limited to R-77. If they get information on one of the later Su-30 radars that can fire the Pl-12 or the R-77-1 ever comes to the game that will be the more significant change.

 I agree however none of the Chinese 30s carry 77-1, it'd have to a MKK late or MK2 with PL-12/10 both of which are still heavily used so are unlikely to be added as FC3 let alone FF. What I'm suggesting would be a band aid until an FF J-11/10 could be made. 

[F-2]

2 minutes ago, FlankerFan35 said:

 I agree however none of the Chinese 30s carry 77-1, it'd have to a MKK late or MK2 with PL-12/10 both of which are still heavily used so are unlikely to be added as FC3 let alone FF. What I'm suggesting would be a band aid until an FF J-11/10 could be made. 

As I understand it anything that can carry R-77 can carry R-77-1 automatically. 
 

I get what your saying but without a good missile I don’t know how much good it will do. Of course I’m massively in favor of updating both the Flanker’s and eagles Radar.

[FlankerFan35]

Just now, F-2 said:

As I understand it anything that can carry R-77 can carry R-77-1 automatically. 
 

I get what your saying but without a good missile I don’t know how much good it will do. Of course I’m massively in favor of updating both the Flanker’s and eagles Radar.

This is true but no Chinese Flanker carries the 77-1 but their Su-35s.

You have a good point for sure, but I don't see any other solution until FF Flanker as you say an update to radars or red missiles for that matter...

Also hate begging for this stuff, just sad that we're stuck with Flankers worse than some of the poorest 3rd world nations on the planet. Guess I'll enjoy J-11 while it lasts and then go only Gen 3.

Maybe Deka can go back and do an FF J-7/F7, J-8II etc instead.

[F-2]

12 minutes ago, FlankerFan35 said:

This is true but no Chinese Flanker carries the 77-1 but their Su-35s.

You have a good point for sure, but I don't see any other solution until FF Flanker as you say an update to radars or red missiles for that matter...

Also hate begging for this stuff, just sad that we're stuck with Flankers worse than some of the poorest 3rd world nations on the planet. Guess I'll enjoy J-11 while it lasts and then go only Gen 3.

Maybe Deka can go back and do an FF J-7/F7, J-8II etc instead.

The company that builds the MKM simulator for the RMAF is based in Pennsylvania. Eventually a modern Flanker will come to DCS

[FlankerFan35]

28 minutes ago, F-2 said:

The company that builds the MKM simulator for the RMAF is based in Pennsylvania. Eventually a modern Flanker will come to DCS

The question is will we be alive by the time they do? and if we are blue will have the NGAD/F-22/35 by that point, quite sad that red is a dead enough for gen 4 and the weapons we do get EG 27ER/77 are bugged and won't be fixed I love red by soon i'll leave it behind and focus blue for at least what they have is correct.

Edited August 13, 2022 by FlankerFan35

[Wyvern]

guys. wait to the end of the year. the JF-17 is coming out of early access. Im pretty sure they had an J-11A FF module in work, which had to be paused due to missing info and the JF-17 taking priority. Once the JF-17 doesnt have to be the top priority out of Early Access,  maybe, just maybe, we will see something regarding the J-11. I think they should add the PL-12 and PL-8 (as we already have them unused in the game). But if they say no, then we wont be able to change it.

I think a good idea would be, if Deka takes what they have on the J-11 and makes the module ready for use, early access is ea for a reason. The F-16 still has Placeholders and unfunctional stuff in the MFDs. Most people also know that Deka, if they say they will deliver, will deliver. 
It doesnt have to be 100% complete for Early access, look at the SA map and youll see what i mean. If there isnt enough data on the RWR and Radar, use another radar and RWR that is in the game already and fix it once you can.

I know this conversation comes up once every 2 months. always by someone else. 
i would be interested what @uboats and @LJQCN101 think about that (tho im pretty sure i know what they will say).

Edited August 17, 2022 by Wyvern

[FlankerFan35]

3 hours ago, Wyvern said:

guys. wait to the end of the year. the JF-17 is coming out of early access. Im pretty sure they had an J-11A FF module in work, which had to be paused due to missing info and the JF-17 taking priority. Once the JF-17 doesnt have to be the top priority out of Early Access,  maybe, just maybe, we will see something regarding the J-11. I think they should add the PL-12 and PL-8 (as we already have them unused in the game). But if they say no, then we wont be able to change it.

I think a good idea would be, if Deka takes what they have on the J-11 and makes the module ready for use, early access is ea for a reason. The F-16 still has Placeholders and unfunctional stuff in the MFDs. Most people also know that Deka, if they say they will deliver, will deliver. 
It doesnt have to be 100% complete for Early access, look at the SA map and youll see what i mean. If there isnt enough data on the RWR and Radar, use another radar and RWR that is in the game already and fix it once you can.

I know this conversation comes up once every 2 months. always by someone else. 
i would be interested what @uboats and @LJQCN101 think about that (tho im pretty sure i know what they will say).

 

I'm hoping hoping! even a later 11A without MFI-55

 

[Blackhawk NC]

As a player that flies primarily REDFOR aircraft, I still firmly believe that DCS is becoming a PVE arena. It is very difficult to compete with BLUFOR aircraft using only traditional REDFOR aircraft. The SU-27 and J-11 are GREAT planes. The JF-17 is a very good semi modern aircraft. But all of these aircraft's capabilities are many levels below the F-16 and the F-18. Without an effective FOX 3 missile on the Flankers, and the constant changes in the SD-10, REDFOR is grossly overmatched against the EVER IMPROVING AIM-120 and the ridiculously accurate AIM-54. The R-77 is a truly ridiculous missile. I understand the F-14 is usually included as a REDFOR aircraft but, for me, Jester makes the aircraft unpleasant to fight with. With the addition of each new, more advanced feature to the Viper and the Hornet, the sim becomes more one sided. With the Eurofighter with its Meteor missile waiting in the wings, another modern aircraft will be added to the already daunting BLUFOR lineup.  While the F-16 is almost always available to REDFOR, everyone knows that it is really a BLUFOR aircraft, and the chances of F-16s meeting in true combat is EXTREMELY low. For a sim that preaches realism, this is just unrealistic. I understand that force balance is not a goal of this sim. However,  it is necessary to provide REDFOR with at least some chance to fight effectively against an ever improving modern BLUFOR. Just a cursory glance at the server list show how many servers no longer even include opposition forces. They fight solely against AI. When BLUFOR has such a large technological advantage, most servers still don't want to fight against a live opponent. Why is that?  Could it be because it is easier to kill an AI opponent? I truly hope that the improvement in AI performance included in 2.8 makes the AI nearly unbeatable. If DCS continues to move toward BLUFOR total dominance, I fear it will become just another game, a single player experience that can be played with other single players in the same multiplayer mission and without any real opposition. It will be VERY difficult to sell expensive new modules in that environment. Sorry for the rant.........

[Wyvern]

I wouldn't say that the Flankers are outmatched, it just depends on how you play them. If you directly challange an F-16 with an Su-27, you will loose, you need to play in an defensive way to win here. The JF-17 currently is on par with the F-16, even if the SD-10s range is slightly lower. At least the SD-10 tracks, unlike the AMRAAM. Youre not wrong, given that the Flanker is outdated.

I've said this a bunch of times already, I'd would argue, give the J-11A the PL-12 and PL-8.
People will complain about it being some frankenstein kind of plane, but to be absolutely fair, so is the JF-17, the F-15E will be like this and and and.

But as I've also said 2 posts above, give it time, wait until the JF-17 leaves Early Access and then we will see.

EDIT:
In regards of the Meteor being OP once its out, I'm curious on how ED plans to balance it. I think everything that is opposing it will be facing issues.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Wyvern

[FlankerFan35]

On 11/7/2022 at 4:58 AM, Blackhawk NC said:

As a player that flies primarily REDFOR aircraft, I still firmly believe that DCS is becoming a PVE arena. It is very difficult to compete with BLUFOR aircraft using only traditional REDFOR aircraft. The SU-27 and J-11 are GREAT planes. The JF-17 is a very good semi modern aircraft. But all of these aircraft's capabilities are many levels below the F-16 and the F-18. Without an effective FOX 3 missile on the Flankers, and the constant changes in the SD-10, REDFOR is grossly overmatched against the EVER IMPROVING AIM-120 and the ridiculously accurate AIM-54. The R-77 is a truly ridiculous missile. I understand the F-14 is usually included as a REDFOR aircraft but, for me, Jester makes the aircraft unpleasant to fight with. With the addition of each new, more advanced feature to the Viper and the Hornet, the sim becomes more one sided. With the Eurofighter with its Meteor missile waiting in the wings, another modern aircraft will be added to the already daunting BLUFOR lineup.  While the F-16 is almost always available to REDFOR, everyone knows that it is really a BLUFOR aircraft, and the chances of F-16s meeting in true combat is EXTREMELY low. For a sim that preaches realism, this is just unrealistic. I understand that force balance is not a goal of this sim. However,  it is necessary to provide REDFOR with at least some chance to fight effectively against an ever improving modern BLUFOR. Just a cursory glance at the server list show how many servers no longer even include opposition forces. They fight solely against AI. When BLUFOR has such a large technological advantage, most servers still don't want to fight against a live opponent. Why is that?  Could it be because it is easier to kill an AI opponent? I truly hope that the improvement in AI performance included in 2.8 makes the AI nearly unbeatable. If DCS continues to move toward BLUFOR total dominance, I fear it will become just another game, a single player experience that can be played with other single players in the same multiplayer mission and without any real opposition. It will be VERY difficult to sell expensive new modules in that environment. Sorry for the rant.........

Just hope Deka has a J-11/10 or MKK on the cards or DCS will be PVE mode.

[FlankerFan35]

5 hours ago, Wyvern said:

I wouldn't say that the Flankers are outmatched, it just depends on how you play them. If you directly challange an F-16 with an Su-27, you will loose, you need to play in an defensive way to win here. The JF-17 currently is on par with the F-16, even if the SD-10s range is slightly lower. At least the SD-10 tracks, unlike the AMRAAM. Youre not wrong, given that the Flanker is outdated.

I've said this a bunch of times already, I'd would argue, give the J-11A the PL-12 and PL-8.
People will complain about it being some frankenstein kind of plane, but to be absolutely fair, so is the JF-17, the F-15E will be like this and and and.

But as I've also said 2 posts above, give it time, wait until the JF-17 leaves Early Access and then we will see.

EDIT:
In regards of the Meteor being OP once its out, I'm curious on how ED plans to balance it. I think everything that is opposing it will be facing issues.

 

Won't be balanced. Only way to offset it would be 120C-7/D or R-77-1. Unless Deka are gods and get us PL-15E.

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

On 8/13/2022 at 10:23 AM, F-2 said:

They mentioned they didn’t have anything on the J-11B cockpit a while ago so I don’t think it’s likely to be in the cards.

 

Type-1493 Might be a Chinese development of Zhuk used on the MK2 so who knows.

 

they have some info on MFI-55 but not yet enough this seems to hold back their ambitions for the J-11

 

Hopefully they will eventually get what they need to upgrade the J-11 and build the MKK. I don’t think it’s an issue of them not wanting to do it rather data is still sparse.

They don't use the Zhuks they were purchased with N001VEPs