Usefull to loft the AIM120-C

[cmbaviator]

let's say you are a couple of Nm outside the Max Range of the AIM120C, it is usefull to loft the 120C to gain a bit more range ? i think the SD10 can benefit from that technique but i'm wondering about the 120C?

Edited September 6, 2022 by cmbaviator

[jurinko]

It clearly works for Harm (see the firing envelope expanding as the nose pitches up) so why not.

[FoxAlfa]

At high range it is always useful to pull up before the launch, it preserves missile energy better since it doesn't need to do it with its limited energy source. 

[Exorcet]

Lofting is pretty much always good. Air is thinner with altitude, the higher the missile goes, the faster it goes. Lofting can not only improve range, but time to target.

[cmbaviator]

10 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Lofting is pretty much always good. Air is thinner with altitude, the higher the missile goes, the faster it goes. Lofting can not only improve range, but time to target.

i see thanks. However i find that it may be more efficient to loft when you are way below the ennemy. indeed if you on the same level as your ennemy or slight my below, if you loft +15 / +20°, and the ennemy will most of the time, to straight to the deck so even if the missile goes in thinner air, it would have to travel more to reach the target

[Exorcet]

51 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

i see thanks. However i find that it may be more efficient to loft when you are way below the ennemy. indeed if you on the same level as your ennemy or slight my below, if you loft +15 / +20°, and the ennemy will most of the time, to straight to the deck so even if the missile goes in thinner air, it would have to travel more to reach the target

That is fine, that longer path is less detrimental to missile performance because of the lower air density. Ignoring the factor of ground clutter, having a missile dive on the target from above is one of the best approaches because gravity is helping the missile down and air resistance is minimal. It is of course possible to loft too much, but this is only an issue for really short range shots for the most part.

[Dragon1-1]

An aircraft loft adds quite a bit of energy to an AIM-120 shot, the fact that DCS doesn't represent this on the DLZs is a big problem. In a real aircraft (at least the F-16) you get a whole set of cues guiding you towards an optimum loft, and you can get a lot of range out of that. When the missile is already within Rpi, you can give it more energy in the terminal phase that way. This can also extend your NEZ. On the flipside, a loft maneuver does make the missile take a longer time to hit, meaning a fast, long ranged Fox 1 like the R-27ER can sometimes win against an AMRAAM.

[Aquorys]

There was a thread about it a while ago here. I also posted a comment with some screenshots showing ~40 nm hits using estimated loft angles. The computer says it's out of range, but I have done that mission a couple times, and they hit pretty much every time.

[cmbaviator]

11 hours ago, Aquorys said:

There was a thread about it a while ago here. I also posted a comment with some screenshots showing ~40 nm hits using estimated loft angles. The computer says it's out of range, but I have done that mission a couple times, and they hit pretty much every time.

Thanks i'll have a look. But i only play on PvP, seems easier to splash AI at long range seeing how badly they defend.

 

I can get BVR kills on the 4YA PvP server but tried on GS server and never got a BVR kill so far, the few kills I got was in WVR

[Aquorys]

4 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

Thanks i'll have a look. But i only play on PvP, seems easier to splash AI at long range seeing how badly they defend.

It varies, this target was an AWACS, it couldn't do much to defend. The Ace AI, if I remember correctly, has perfect knowledge of the missile's state, so it definitely has an unrealistic advantage over human pilots.

 

4 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

I can get BVR kills on the 4YA PvP server but tried on GS server and never got a BVR kill so far, the few kills I got was in WVR

I guess the biggest problem with PvP in general is that most people are just lone-wolfing at ground level, basically dogfighting with AMRAAMs, a complete lack of any fear of death, absence of any realistic tactics plus some game problems that make various weapons way too easy to defeat, and you get the arcade-style low-altitude furball dogfight action movies that PvP servers are. I would not expect to see much realistic BVR action taking place on any PvP server.

PvE against AI is probably more likely to let you take some BVR shots, but suffers from a multitude of other problems, from way too predictable AI behavior, nonsensical AI tactics on one hand to supernatural AI abilities on the other hand, so it does not really compare well to BVR vs. human opponents.

I guess your best chance to practice somewhat realistic BVR combat would be to find a group of people with an interest in BVR combat tactics and their own servers and scenarios, so you can fly with wingmen who know some tactics and fight opponents with equal abilities.

[cmbaviator]

26 minutes ago, Aquorys said:

It varies, this target was an AWACS, it couldn't do much to defend. The Ace AI, if I remember correctly, has perfect knowledge of the missile's state, so it definitely has an unrealistic advantage over human pilots.

 

I guess the biggest problem with PvP in general is that most people are just lone-wolfing at ground level, basically dogfighting with AMRAAMs, a complete lack of any fear of death, absence of any realistic tactics plus some game problems that make various weapons way too easy to defeat, and you get the arcade-style low-altitude furball dogfight action movies that PvP servers are. I would not expect to see much realistic BVR action taking place on any PvP server.

PvE against AI is probably more likely to let you take some BVR shots, but suffers from a multitude of other problems, from way too predictable AI behavior, nonsensical AI tactics on one hand to supernatural AI abilities on the other hand, so it does not really compare well to BVR vs. human opponents.

I guess your best chance to practice somewhat realistic BVR combat would be to find a group of people with an interest in BVR combat tactics and their own servers and scenarios, so you can fly with wingmen who know some tactics and fight opponents with equal abilities.

I agree, i play 95% on 4YA Pvp Server and 5% on the GS server but both are on the caucasus map and everyone flies very low and hides in the moutains in the center and go for dogfight. Would be nice to have pvP server on flat terrain like syria, Nevada, marianas......

[Aquorys]

1 hour ago, cmbaviator said:

I agree, i play 95% on 4YA Pvp Server and 5% on the GS server but both are on the caucasus map and everyone flies very low and hides in the moutains in the center and go for dogfight

Most people do the same thing in PvE (and the AI also tends to do that a lot), and it gets them killed very frequently. It's not a lack of maneuvering skills that gets them killed, it's a lack of applying tactics - not attacking with a tactical advantage, not knowing when to abort, not having any plan on how to get away again in the first place, lack of situational awareness, etc.

 

1 hour ago, cmbaviator said:

Would be nice to have pvP server on flat terrain like syria, Nevada, marianas......

Does not even need to be on flat terrain. Some coordination in your coalition would probably do the trick, so you can wash the opponents out of the mountain valleys. Or just some ground support in the scenario, e.g., simply a couple random MANPADS here and there that you can't see on the map, as it would likely be the case in real life, and there comes the BVR action that you were looking for.

[cmbaviator]

1 minute ago, Aquorys said:

Most people do the same thing in PvE (and the AI also tends to do that a lot), and it gets them killed very frequently. It's not a lack of maneuvering skills that gets them killed, it's a lack of applying tactics - not attacking with a tactical advantage, not knowing when to abort, not having any plan on how to get away again in the first place, lack of situational awareness, etc.

 

Does not even need to be on flat terrain. Some coordination in your coalition would probably do the trick, so you can wash the opponents out of the mountain valleys. Or just some ground support in the scenario, e.g., simply a couple random MANPADS here and there that you can't see on the map, as it would likely be the case in real life, and there comes the BVR action that you were looking for.

I find the helicopter OP in PvP, they can drop SAM site and manpads like they want it seems so. But none of them puts ma pads in the mountains