A lot of broken tracks on Syria instant action BVR mission.

[feeleyat]

What am I doing wrong?  I launch angels 30 mach 1.0, 25-30nm and almost instantly one or both tracks are trashed. Some times one will hold to terminal but even sometimes the second one is trashed before terminal.  If I go Co alt. with low bandit for look up same thing happens.  I can complete this mission with one 54 and one aim7, but is there no way 54,s can splash both bandits. I know kinetics were changed but is guidance affected as well?

This is with the default loadout on an F14A.

Edited September 7, 2022 by feeleyat
Clarity

[captain_dalan]

14 hours ago, feeleyat said:

What am I doing wrong?  I launch angels 30 mach 1.0, 25-30nm and almost instantly one or both tracks are trashed. Some times one will hold to terminal but even sometimes the second one is trashed before terminal.  If I go Co alt. with low bandit for look up same thing happens.  I can complete this mission with one 54 and one aim7, but is there no way 54,s can splash both bandits. I know kinetics were changed but is guidance affected as well?

This is with the default loadout on an F14A.

 

One of the bandits gets outside your radar cone as you are closing in. Usually it's the higher one, but it can be either. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by captain_dalan

[feeleyat]

so why sometimes both tracks get trashed?

[feeleyat]

What is the elevation and azimuth cone of tws auto? 40 or 20 degrees?  Ill have to do some math.  I got it to work once by launching at angels 28 then nosing down to 14k. Their altitudes were 19k and 9k.  Do I have to be between their altitudes?  Can't tws auto look down or up at all?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by feeleyat
Spelling

[captain_dalan]

7 hours ago, feeleyat said:

so why sometimes both tracks get trashed?

Have you fired in the meantime?

5 hours ago, feeleyat said:

What is the elevation and azimuth cone of tws auto? 40 or 20 degrees?  Ill have to do some math.  I got it to work once by launching at angels 28 then nosing down to 14k. Their altitudes were 19k and 9k.  Do I have to be between their altitudes?  Can't tws auto look down or up at all?

 

 

 

 

 

2 BAR for 40 degrees and 4 BAR for 20 degrees. TWS auto will switch on its own between the two, in order to try and keep as many contacts inside the cone. And yes, TWS auto does automatically look up or down, but issue is when it has a hard time deciding where, up OR down, left OR right. If the system can't settle on one target quick enough, you can lose both, especially if you have already launched. 

The particular problem in this mission is that one of bandits starts hugging the ground soon after the start of the mission, while the other one climbs up to meet you. This means one will be at 3-5000ft, while the other up there at 30000ft. It's impossible to keep both in the cone if this happens. Especially not if you closing with them. It is possible to get both inside, with a drop in altitude, but this will require meta-gaming with the DCS AI a bit. My recommendation is focusing on one target only. I go about it in one of two ways:

1. You either STT the closest bandit, preferably the higher one. You fire on him, and when he goes defensive, you burn like a bat out of hell for him, and fire from active off the rail range, then immediately proceed to look for the other bandit. Good SA will be the key. Watch out for RWR contacts and missile trails. They can help you evade those shots and spot the bandits sooner and easier.

2. After you lose the tracks, wait a bit, the radar will soon pick up one, usually the lower one, but it doesn't really matter which. Sometimes only one track will be lost, again usually the high flying one.

2-a. If you lose the high one: As your track stabilizes on the lower bandit, launch a missile with target size set to large, so it goes active sooner, rather then later. Support the missile until it goes active (usually around 20ish seconds TTI) while offsetting the RWR contact. As soon as the missile is active, break radar contact (PLM button), and immediately start looking for the other bandit. If that is the high one, you can usually spot his smoky engines or vapor trail (if he's high enough) from inside 20ish miles. He may have fired on you by now, which means you can also spot the missile trail. Even easier to spot then. Turn into him, PAL mode on, you'll get a lock. Fire a Phoenix at him in P-STT. By now you are already probably close enoguh for a mad-dog launch to pick him up. He is already defensive and diving by this point (if he launched) so be mindful of this. Make sure you launch alongside the phoenix radar view angle, so the missile can find him. Then if launched upon go nose down and try to vertically notch the missile fired at you, but KEEP mental picture of where the bandit was when you started diving, as you are very likely to lose the lock. As soon as you fire on him, he well go full defensive and stop supporting his missile. As soon as the RWR goes silent, remember where he was, turn that way and start scanning for him, both visually and in PAL. When you find him, press the attack, and after a missile or two more, he's a goner. During all this, the other bandit is probably still turning cold from defending your fist shot. Don't expect this one to hit. After you have finished with the high one, go low and locate the other guy. If needed turn cold first to get some room for radar manipulation.
2-b. If you lose the low one, it's even better, Fire in TWS and stay in TWS as long as possible. As the high one dives for cover when your missile goes active, your radar will try to follow down as well and you can actually pick up the other bandit. If not, follow the procedure from the above, and run down the high bandit first. Then go for the low one. The use of TWS or PAL will depend on how the situation evolves. 

Remember to come out of burner and start pumping out flares as soon as you inside 10 miles from a bandit. You won't always be able to spot the R-73 launches in time, especially not with having to keep SA on two bandits at the same time.

Hope this helps! 

[feeleyat]

Wow. Thanks for the reply.  So it is TWS auto, not me.  Just wanted to see if I was doing something wrong.  When TWS auto goes 20 to 40 degrees do the bars change (2 bars right?) or is it just azimuth?

[near_blind]

The bars change as well. TWS must complete its complete sweep every two seconds.