F22A Mod. AIM 102 D versus AIM 120C-5 - difference in AVIONICs and unusual behavior.

[einarabelc5]

Background: I downloaded the mod from here:
https://grinnellidesigns.com/f22/
 Definitely the 2-20-21 release version.

So, there's a difference in essential behavior between these two and that is the SHOOT indicator.

The AIM120C works the same way as it does under the F-15C under Flaming Cliffs(which is what I have).

The AIM120D has a couple of weird behaviors that I've noticed.

 

1.-In the HUD it is named A#A , while the older model is A#C. Everywhere else (map, external view, editor, etc) is 120D. 

2.-The SHOOT star under the target indicator doesn't show up either in STT or TWS modes with the AIM-120D, it does in the AIM-120C.

3.-The SHOOT voice cue never comes up.

4.-Most importantly the RANGE indicator on the right of the HUD appears Squashed, the lines are there, just overlapping. 

5.- The worst part, sometimes it seems the missiles just don't arm/activate, they flight RIGHT by bandits and just don't detonate. Been seeing plenty of youtube videos where missiles don't impact directly but detonate on proximity to the bandit still causing damage. 

Of course I have Master Arm on and am using the correct HOTAS weapon release control configs.

I'm very confused about this. NO GUIDE video on youtube explains this behavior. At first I thought it was only TWS but then I noticed it is STT too.

 

For the record the AIM-9x and AIM-9xx work just fine.

What's the issue then?


This is happening in both build 2.71.17 and the newest 2.71.18 downloaded recently.

Thanks in advance!

Edited October 8, 2022 by einarabelc5

[einarabelc5]

Follow up, I did a mission and the Shoot notification basically showed up on a range similar to that of the AIM-9x. I think the issue is that the AVIONICS is seeing it as an A2A, as in the first version of the AMRAAM. Could it be possible.

[SkateZilla]

Likely because the F-15C Avionics in use by the mod doesnt recognize the AIM-120D as it's not part of the Avionics Package.

[einarabelc5]

On 10/9/2022 at 1:54 AM, SkateZilla said:

Likely because the F-15C Avionics in use by the mod doesnt recognize the AIM-120D as it's not part of the Avionics Package.

That's an interesting hypothesis.
The follow up question then is, why no one has mentioned it before?

Fun fact,  my memory about some of the F-22A videos I've seen for the last couple of years was actually wrong, this video actually shows the AIM-120C used in the avionics. I really thought there was something wrong with my set up and not that this is just the way things were.
https://youtu.be/VbcR7Wmlnpk?t=119

Edited October 10, 2022 by einarabelc5

[einarabelc5]

And I found a video that represent exactly what I see:
https://youtu.be/TSJnCyJXOp4?t=461

[SkateZilla]

because it's a mod, and the AIM-120D isn't part of the Compiled F-15C DLL, nor part of DCS Core, 

So the Mod has it as a new weapon, but the Avionics in the F-15C DLL don't properly recognize it, plus the mod prolly doesn't take into account all the core AIM-120 changes put out recently, so it makes it even worse, as the core 120A 120C and 120C5 are all using the new missile logic, while the mod's 120D is likely using the old parameters copy/pasted and edited to make a new missile.

[Nightstorm]

The behavior you're describing is because the added missile in the stock mod doesn't have the DLZ information that was added into DCS last December time frame.  That DLZ information is what controls the ranges, the shoot queue, the HUD/RADAR range lines etc.

The stock Weapons.lua dated 4/11/21 that controls that missile is also encrypted.  This will have to be fixed by the dev team if they choose.

In the add-on I maintain, I added the AIM-120D and a few variants and they have the DLZ information in them.

The AXA vs AXC you refer to is indeed due to the avionics of the FC3 F15C and is in fact the only reason we can use add on weapons for it.  The avionics looks at the seeker type and if it doesn't know the weapon it calls it an AIM-7F, AIM-9L or AIM-120A.  The irony being that we don't actually have a working AIM-120A on anything, yet the model and textures have been in game for a few years.

Another aircraft that works like this is the F14 by Heatblur.  That's why some 3rd party weapons mods have been released for it.  It follows the same principal but it things the weapons are either AIM-9, AIM-7 or AIM-54 depending on the seeker.

If you try to add a custom weapon to the F-16C for example, it will show up on the model, but not in any avionics and can't be used.  Which is in fact how the CATM- mod I did works, and that's fine, since you can't fire them anyhow.

I hope this helps.

[einarabelc5]

7 hours ago, Nightstorm said:

The behavior you're describing is because the added missile in the stock mod doesn't have the DLZ information that was added into DCS last December time frame.  That DLZ information is what controls the ranges, the shoot queue, the HUD/RADAR range lines etc.

The stock Weapons.lua dated 4/11/21 that controls that missile is also encrypted.  This will have to be fixed by the dev team if they choose.

In the add-on I maintain, I added the AIM-120D and a few variants and they have the DLZ information in them.

The AXA vs AXC you refer to is indeed due to the avionics of the FC3 F15C and is in fact the only reason we can use add on weapons for it.  The avionics looks at the seeker type and if it doesn't know the weapon it calls it an AIM-7F, AIM-9L or AIM-120A.  The irony being that we don't actually have a working AIM-120A on anything, yet the model and textures have been in game for a few years.

Another aircraft that works like this is the F14 by Heatblur.  That's why some 3rd party weapons mods have been released for it.  It follows the same principal but it things the weapons are either AIM-9, AIM-7 or AIM-54 depending on the seeker.

If you try to add a custom weapon to the F-16C for example, it will show up on the model, but not in any avionics and can't be used.  Which is in fact how the CATM- mod I did works, and that's fine, since you can't fire them anyhow.

I hope this helps.

It does, but it's going to take a little bit to process. The first part makes perfect sense. I'd have to look at the other examples to get all the details and nuances but I get the general idea. The last part was a little confusing but thanks for sharing. I will consider your Mod since I'm aware of it. If I'm correct it was branched off the Grinelli one.

Thanks so much!!

On 10/10/2022 at 1:14 AM, SkateZilla said:

because it's a mod, and the AIM-120D isn't part of the Compiled F-15C DLL, nor part of DCS Core, 

So the Mod has it as a new weapon, but the Avionics in the F-15C DLL don't properly recognize it, plus the mod prolly doesn't take into account all the core AIM-120 changes put out recently, so it makes it even worse, as the core 120A 120C and 120C5 are all using the new missile logic, while the mod's 120D is likely using the old parameters copy/pasted and edited to make a new missile.

That makes perfect sense. I am surprised I didn't hear Grim Reapers comment anything about this since they have been using the 120D extensively on their recent videos. I wasn't aware of any of this so thanks for the context.

I'm beginning to get some idea of how the module architecture works now with these two clarifications.

Edited October 11, 2022 by einarabelc5

[einarabelc5]

On 10/10/2022 at 7:31 PM, Nightstorm said:

The behavior you're describing is because the added missile in the stock mod doesn't have the DLZ information that was added into DCS last December time frame.  That DLZ information is what controls the ranges, the shoot queue, the HUD/RADAR range lines etc.

The stock Weapons.lua dated 4/11/21 that controls that missile is also encrypted.  This will have to be fixed by the dev team if they choose.

In the add-on I maintain, I added the AIM-120D and a few variants and they have the DLZ information in them.

The AXA vs AXC you refer to is indeed due to the avionics of the FC3 F15C and is in fact the only reason we can use add on weapons for it.  The avionics looks at the seeker type and if it doesn't know the weapon it calls it an AIM-7F, AIM-9L or AIM-120A.  The irony being that we don't actually have a working AIM-120A on anything, yet the model and textures have been in game for a few years.

Another aircraft that works like this is the F14 by Heatblur.  That's why some 3rd party weapons mods have been released for it.  It follows the same principal but it things the weapons are either AIM-9, AIM-7 or AIM-54 depending on the seeker.

If you try to add a custom weapon to the F-16C for example, it will show up on the model, but not in any avionics and can't be used.  Which is in fact how the CATM- mod I did works, and that's fine, since you can't fire them anyhow.

I hope this helps.

Hey Man, I went through your mod's thread and there are too many posts. It makes it hard to find the latest version although if I read correctly the links remain the same in dropbox. Have you considered linking that dropbox address to github repo or something as releases? Thank you!

[Nightstorm]

18 hours ago, einarabelc5 said:

Hey Man, I went through your mod's thread and there are too many posts. It makes it hard to find the latest version although if I read correctly the links remain the same in dropbox. Have you considered linking that dropbox address to github repo or something as releases? Thank you!

Well, it's an add-on to the official release of the F22.  I don't want to redistribute the entire thing or have to maintain it in various places.  As you said, I the links stay the same from the first post and I just update the date and post when something changed.

[einarabelc5]

8 hours ago, Nightstorm said:

Well, it's an add-on to the official release of the F22.  I don't want to redistribute the entire thing or have to maintain it in various places.  As you said, I the links stay the same from the first post and I just update the date and post when something changed.

Right, that also confused me. The original was over 1.2 GB I was confused when I heard that the add-on was so too.

[einarabelc5]

11 hours ago, Nightstorm said:

Well, it's an add-on to the official release of the F22.  I don't want to redistribute the entire thing or have to maintain it in various places.  As you said, I the links stay the same from the first post and I just update the date and post when something changed.

Could there be a permanent post with a thread closed and single post with the link? Can this forum do stickies?

[einarabelc5]

7 hours ago, einarabelc5 said:

Could there be a permanent post with a thread closed and single post with the link? Can this forum do stickies?

Correction....there is:
"I'm going to link all of the files and liveries for the F22 "enhancement" mod here.  I'll keep the same file names through any updates.  More details about the mod found on the link above.  Remember that the main mod is REQUIRED (linked above)."
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/252855-f-22a-raptor-mod-enhancement-mod/page/1

[einarabelc5]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:47 PM, Nightstorm said:

Well, it's an add-on to the official release of the F22.  I don't want to redistribute the entire thing or have to maintain it in various places.  As you said, I the links stay the same from the first post and I just update the date and post when something changed.

Congratulations, I just got to the load out screen and are already having fun!! We'll see how it works!!