Mark point cannot be created in A/G visual mode and HTS

[drsoran]

Hi together, I encountered strange behavior with mark points in conjunction with the HTS and having no A/G ordnance. So my loadout is only A/A + TGP + HTS. No A/G weapons able for preplanned mode. When I switch to A/G then CCIP mode is entered. Now I select the HAD page. As far as I understood, bugging something on the HAD creates a SPI/STP at this location. So TGP slews to it, all fine. So now I want to create a mark point from the TGP and hit ICP-7 MARK, dobber right to TGP and change SOI to TGP. But TMS up does not create a mark point for me. Coordinates keep all 0. So even when I dobber through all mark point creation options, no mark point can be created.

Don't know if this is a bug or correct behavior so:

• If this is correct, why I cannot create a MP from a SPI when I have no preplanned ordnance? The HAF T.O. GR1 F-1 60-34-1 —1 states

  Quote

  In all air-to-air master modes, all mark attempts result in overfly marks. In the navigation master mode and in air-to-ground preplanned modes all mark modes can be used. In air-to-ground visual modes, sensor marks return the current steerpoint coordinates.

  I know this is not the version we have but what is the reason behind it to not be able to create a mark point in our Viper? Just want to understand it.

• Why can I change SOI via DMS down when in MARK mode? I thought MARK overrides SOI to the MARK selected sensor.

  And it seems to be the case for the first DMS down after entering MARK. MARK enters in HUD and DMS down gives SOI to left MFD and instantly switches back to HUD. You can see the flicker in the attached track. The next DMS down will then change to left MFD.

Track attached.

mark.trk

Edited October 25, 2022 by drsoran

[void68]

From what I recall... I am at the office and can't check the trk nor do a test: TMS up 2 times, first to ground stabilize, second to enter the data - or was this the condition just for HUD marking?

I think there's a reason why this module still is in EA, lots of bugs in the logic - or it's a feature. But I think I remember once on a pure recon mission I had no AG ordnance, too, just the HTS and the TGP and I was able to set markpoints.

Edited October 27, 2022 by void68

[Ignition]

I don't know how it should work but... you can always create marks in NAV also you need to do 2 TMS up to create the mark. First to point (TGP) and then to store.

DMS down switches SOI between left and right mfd, DMS up selects HUD. At least in DCS you need to manually select the sensor both in (MARK) DED and mfd/hud.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Ignition

[Raptor9]

Hi @drsoran, I hope I can be of help. When a markpoint is generated, it can only be generated by designating a location using the HUD in VIS mode, the TGP in Point track mode, the FCR in FTT mode, or designating the aircraft's current position (as in the case of the OFLY option). If you are in CCRP or DTOS air-to-ground sub-modes or NAV master mode, the TGP can designate a location in Point track mode without issue. This is why it is necessary to press TMS Forward twice to generate a markpoint when using the HUD, TGP or FCR sensor MARK options. The first TMS Forward command enters TGP Point track, FCR FTT, or ground stabilizes the HUD VIS pipper, the second TMS Forward designates the location for the markpoint.

When in CCIP air-to-ground sub-mode, the TGP is normally slaved to the CCIP pipper, which allows TGP-laser ranging to be performed in conjunction with CCIP weapons employment. As a result, the TGP cannot enter Point track mode, which means the TGP cannot designate a location to generate a markpoint. In the case of having no air-to-ground weapons loaded (and as a result no corresponding air-to-ground SMS weapon profile to generate the CCIP computations), the TGP doesn't have any CCIP pipper to slave to, and the TGP can be slewed about if necessary for ground reconnaissance and such, even without air-to-ground weapons loaded. However, I suspect that this very specific circumstance (CCIP mode without an air-to-ground SMS profile) is why it is not possible to generate a markpoint with the TGP, even though the TGP can be commanded to enter Point track mode under these conditions.

As to whether this reflects the actual USAF F-16C Block 50 avionics logic, I do not know (I'm neither an F-16 pilot, nor a member of the F-16 dev team). I've determined this is how the logic currently exists within DCS: F-16C, based on my research and testing as part of the process of updating the DCS F-16C manual .

For now, you can still accomplish what you desire (using the HTS to cue the TGP to a location and then designating a markpoint from the TGP, with just air-to-air weapons loaded), but you will need to be in NAV mode.

On 10/25/2022 at 2:10 PM, drsoran said:

• Why can I change SOI via DMS down when in MARK mode? I thought MARK overrides SOI to the MARK selected sensor.

  And it seems to be the case for the first DMS down after entering MARK. MARK enters in HUD and DMS down gives SOI to left MFD and instantly switches back to HUD. You can see the flicker in the attached track. The next DMS down will then change to left MFD.

Regarding this question, any time the CCIP or STRF air-to-ground sub-modes are entered, the FCR is switched to AGR mode for accurate ranging and the HUD is automatically selected as the SOI. If HUD is toggled as the sensor option on the MARK DED page, a similar process occurs: HUD VIS sub-mode is entered, the FCR is switched to AGR mode and the HUD is automatically selected as the SOI.

After this occurs, the first DMS Aft press exits VIS mode and returns to the previous master mode/sub-mode (so that having MARK on the DED with HUD as the sensor option doesn't inadvertently lock-out other master modes, it allows the pilot to abort the markpoint process without needing to take his hands off the HOTAS to press the ICP DCS to SEQ or RTN). In the same specific circumstance that you've described above of having no air-to-ground weapons loaded but in A-G master mode, the only two air-to-ground sub-modes that could be entered are CCIP and STRF. So what you are seeing is the VIS mode switching back to CCIP mode when DMS Aft is pressed, which is why the SOI instantly switches back to the HUD. To re-enter HUD VIS mode, you will need to use the DCS SEQ position to cycle back to MARK *HUD* sensor option to re-enable HUD VIS mode.

This doesn't occur with the other sensor options since 1) there is no mode switching required when these MARK sensor options are selected and 2) the SOI must be switched to TGP or FCR to command them enter Point track or FTT in order to designate the location for a markpoint.

I hope this helps, along with the future update to the F-16 manual (still WIP) that will include in-depth explanations into MARK logic/functionality.