AWG-9 troubles, can't get the radar to see basically anything

[Storebror]

Hi there,

I admit I'm a newbie to DCS World, the F-14 and everything else, but I promise I did try to wrap my head around this myself first, read the manuals, read Chuck's guides, watch a couple of videos (e.g. Grim Reaper's Phoenix guides), talk to other friends who were much more proficient than me with both DCS and the F-14 (and they just came back with the very same issue), so here I am...

What I'm trying to do here is to run a pretty simple test mission which I've found here:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1861644772

The cold&dark start works a treat and while approaching the first waypoint, my AWG-9 picks up two IL-76s lingering there.
I launch an AIM-54 on one of them, watch the missile hit the target, then figure that I got damn close to the target area meanwhile, turn around to get some distance for my 2nd shot, turn in again and then... nothing.

Can't for my life get my AWG-9 to come up with any target, even when pointing my nose right at the other IL-76 or another Tu-95 that popped up meanwhile. Nothing. No matter what radar mode I chose (I've intended not to use any other than TWS auto, but eventually tried others like PD too), the best I get from the radar is one signal returned from something that's... dunno what? ... a SAM site?.
I've captured a video of my latest attempt. Sorry for swearing, it became a bit annoying now that this was my fifth attempt and every time it ended up in a mess, always different, but in the end never working at all.

Now that I'm a dumb newbie, I'm glad to receive any kind of advice how to get my trusty and rusty AWG-9 to "talk" to me again in similar situations.
Thanks in advance.

Mike

[Lt_Jaeger]

At 06:19 you see that your upper scan limit is something around 44k and the lower around 22k, so there is no way you see the targets

Later on, you are waaaay to close to pick them up in the selected RADAR setting. Then there is a thing as a Zero Doppler and MLC Filter, which basically filter out targets with no closure rate. Mashing some unrelated button doesn't help. 

You are talking about lock. TWS never locks the target, it just paint it while still sweeping the area.

Targets 5 miles off the nose, with a 50mile radar setting, will be roughly over your aircraft symbol IF they are picked up. For a symbol in TWS to appear, the WCS has to build a track file, which needs the radar to paint it for what, like 4 consecutive scans(?). TWS sucks in close. That what the pilots mode are for. 

 

You should take a look in the manual about beam "sizes". basically, you are trying to poke with a pencil straight ahead, trying to hit a paper ball on the floor. Agreed that Jester lacks the talent to actively looking for a close target, but by 10 miles you as a pilot should take over the radar anyhow and guide it with the whole plane.

 

TLDNR , Radar is fine, you just expect things outside the performance envelope

[Storebror]

Thanks for the feedback Lt_Jaeger, I'll have a look at beam sizes and scan limits, sounds promising!

Mike

[Lt_Jaeger]

Did download the mission and was able to see them all and shoot them all. It's a far fetch with the two CANDIDs, since they circle and thus wander twice per circle thru the MLC Filter and thus the AWG9 losing track or better going into memory (You see this in your Video as well (x) on the track.), but since they are nice to the MSL the Phoenix picks them up in active.

That thing you declared as the Helicopter is actually the Steerpoint Homebase.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Lt_Jaeger

[Storebror]

Alright I see.
I've prepared myself a dead simple training mission where I'm attacking a flight of 4 Tu-22M3 head on, being equipped with 4xPhoenix, 2xSparrow and 2xSidewinder missiles myself.
From what I witnessed, getting the initial TWS painting is a breeze and launching 4 Phoenix missiles from 15~20nm is more or less a guaranteed hit for all of them.
Everything changes when I break away and turn in behind the Tupolevs.
If I manage to keep a "safe" distance of at least 20nm, The AWG-9 will eventually pick up the Tupolevs again after a seemingly "endless" time of flying straight behind them (several minutes). I've checked scan limits this time and they were 80k (upper) and 0 (lower), so nothing should keep the AWG-9 from picking up the targets.
If however I come closer, let's say I end up 15nm behind the Tupolevs, the AWG-9 will never pick them up in TWS mode. It does pick them almost immediately in STT mode (BVR -> STT Lock) and I can kill all Tupolevs "simulateneously" the same way like I do in TWS mode then (launch all 4 Phoenix missiles one after another) which seems funny to me, as STT Lock should be single target, shouldn't it?

Mike

[Lt_Jaeger]

If you are too slow behind them, the targets get lost in the zero Doppler/MLC Filter. Same thing as notching. 

 

That you kill all in STT is due to the C getting active and is looking for a target on it self. If they are close enough together..... .

If you do this with an A you will waste the MSL. 

 

So all is working as intended, exept the STT thing, but that is a dcs shortcomming. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Lt_Jaeger

[Storebror]

Thank you very much again Lt_Jaeger, it all starts making sense to me now 

Mike

[Lt_Jaeger]

From the manual

 

Because of the way the radar operates the doppler filters it will have two blind ranges. The main lobe clutter (MLC) region which contains most of the ground returns, including those returning with zero groundspeed and is 266 knots wide, centered around own aircraft groundspeed (133 knots slower and 133 knots faster). This is the reason that the radar can be notched as a target with the same relative groundspeed as the ground will also be filtered out. This is however only true for look-down conditions as when the radar antenna looks up into the sky this filter isn’t necessary and can be turned off. If the MLC switch on the DDD panel is in AUTO the radar will automatically turn off the MLC filter if looking more than 3 degrees above the horizon. It can also be turned off manually by the RIO but if the antenna looks down this can make the displays unusable in RWS and TWS as all of the ground returns will be sent to the computer for tracking. In whichever case, with the MLC filter off, the target cannot notch the AN/AWG-9 if it is above the radar.

The second filter, and second blind spot, of the radar is the zero doppler filter. This blind area is centered around a closure rate of negative own groundspeed, meaning a target moving away from own aircraft at the same speed as own aircraft. This blind area is a hardware limitation as it is a doppler radar mode it cannot detect targets without a doppler shift. The resulting blind area is 200 knots wide, meaning that a chased target moving at a speed of within 100 knots (+/-) of own groundspeed will be invisible to the radar. This means that when chasing a fleeing target it may very well be necessary to use the pulse modes instead.

 

These numbers are the magic behind most of the broken Radar stuff..... then the "small beam"+ the "computer" of the WCS - there you got it

[The_Tau]

AWG9 is old radar and it got lot of limitations. Its important to learn them to fully use the radar potential. Same goes with radar modes. Depending what modes you use for example Pulse Doppler STT or Pulse STT the behavior of AIM54 will change.  Same comes with ACM cover, when its in up position then behavior of missile changes.

Also AIM 54 is not AMRAAM, it truly is long range missile, AWG9 TWS is very old and cant be compared with TWS in newer jets like F15,16,18.

20nm TWS is too close really, best ranges are like 75-30nm with TWS shots. Holding fire in 30-20nm (loft of 54 on those ranges is not most efficient also target at those ranges may go defensive making chance of losing TWS track much more probable) range and then use STT modes in ranges less then 20nm. null