Strange Sam behavior

[topol-m]

I`ve noticed when trying out some editor created scenarios that Sams (especially S-300) is not firing missile at an enemy aircraft until its almost over its head :doh: Its a complete group of vehicles (radar, launcher) staying still at the beach and a group of enemy F-15 is coming towards it from a distance of 200km, 2000m altitude from the sea (so there is no mountains to help them stay undetected) and you would assume that S-300 will fire at 100+ km and the 15s won`t know what hit them but that`s not what`s really happening :mad: The AI of the sam group is set to highest level so these motherf....s are not just gathering sun light and watching the girls on the beach, but this doesnt seem to help them use their long range missiles as they should. I haven`t tried this scenario with Patriot,Buk, or other medium or long range sams. But i just have the feeling that they will do the same. Any idea?

[BRraptor]

Maybe you should give the sams attack areas with a 100km radius?

[topol-m]

In fact i`ve given them 200km attack radius and they are doing the same.

[topol-m]

Something is very wrong with sams.Ok i`ve done 2 more tests and thats the result: 2 F18 vs S-300 group (2 launchers,radar,etc.) 150 km distance, 2 km altitude, 500kph. The s-300 had 200km attack range. They fired their first missiles when the f-18s were 25km away :doh: Both targets destroyed.

2nd test: 2 Mig-27 vs Patriot (1 launcher, radar, command vehicle probably) 150km distance, 2km altitude, 1000kph speed. The Patriot had 150km attack range. It fired a missile when the migs were 40km away (better but way closer than it should) missed, 2nd missile, 3rd, 4th all missed (typical for patriot). I quited to find a gun and shoot myself.

1 other thing the fighters had SEAD mission and when the sams began shooting missiles, in both tests the initiated evasive maneuvers releasing chaff but also dropped all their payload :doh: So i assume their tactic is the sam to end with no missiles so they can kamikadze crash on it with Banzaaaaii :pilotfly:

[GGTharos]

The '200km' range is against a high-altitude (50000' +) supersonic target.

 

Your perception of how missiles work is off, not what the SAMs are doing ;)

[Feuerfalke]

Well, while the S-300 is designed for defense against aircraft at 30,000ft.

 

But AFAIK it should be able to attack anything between 5km and 47km range at altitudes from 80ft to 30,000ft (5V55R - missile).

 

 

So, based on data available for the S-300, the DCS-Simulated S-300 does not fire within it's operational radius, not at the given altitudes, but it fires when the target is below the minimum range. Sounds rather like a bug to me, to be honest.

 

 

(e.g. http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/s300.htm )

 

The S-300PMU-19M96E2 has an effective range of 120km, but it can also engage targets from 16ft to 30,000ft with a minimum of 1km.

 

So it would be interesting to know which of the missiles is used anyway ;)

Edited January 21, 2009 by Feuerfalke

[GGTharos]

The real Patriot launches on ABTs at 30km, and then twice at 20km if you survive the first shot.

 

No bug.

[FedEx]

The S-300 is a series of Russian long range surface-to-air missile systems produced by the Almaz Scientific Industrial Corporation all based on the initial S-300P version. The S-300 system was developed to defend against aircraft and cruise missiles for the Soviet Air Defence Forces. Subsequent variations were developed to intercept ballistic missiles.

 

Some of this 300 where developed to intercept cruise missiles, now witch version is model here on BS.

 

I pass over one yesterday and they where at the beach looking at the girls.

Edited January 21, 2009 by FedEx
what?

[Feuerfalke]

The '200km' range is against a high-altitude (50000' +) supersonic target.

 

Your perception of how missiles work is off, not what the SAMs are doing ;)

 

Reading this the second time leaves me a bit puzzled.

 

You mean that the missile is fired for maximum effectivity to hit the target at maximum range and maximum altitude? I always thought airdefenses were called "umbrella" because of the shape made from maximum range and altitude. Well, I know the missiles in LockOn don't use fuel for vertical movement, but do you indicate that we have cylindrical engagement areas for BlackShark, too?

 

:dunno:

[topol-m]

I agree that interception of the target and firing the missile depends on target size, altitude, speed , heading, etc. But considering the effective range of S-300PMU and its purpose its not serious that it can fire missile at a fighter at a distance of just 25km. :doh: Even patriot is beating it with almost twice that range :lol: Can`t believe it. I`ll dig deeper but i`m sure S-300 is more than capable of shooting a fighter down from much longer distance. Check the specifications- the actual range of intercepting a missile (which is shorter than the aircraft intercepting range) is 5-40km:

http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/air_def/air_def_10-13.pdf

[MBot]

I always thought airdefenses were called "umbrella" because of the shape made from maximum range and altitude. Well, I know the missiles in LockOn don't use fuel for vertical movement, but do you indicate that we have cylindrical engagement areas for BlackShark, too?

 

The shape is actually more a upside-down umbrella, with maximum range achieved against high flying targets. It has worked this way since Lock On (most likely even since Flanker 1 or 2).

[GGTharos]

Depends on what you're engaging.

 

Yes, it is an umbrella, but the umbrella should really look more like a mushroom - these are high-altitude systems and are optimized for destroying high-altitude targets.

Their low altitude performance should not be and is not all that great (which doesn't mean you get to laugh at'em when they're launched at you, it means it creates gaps in defense)

 

The S-300 can easily have 150km engagement (read: not launch. ENGAGEMENT) range against an ABT doing mach 2 straight towards the SAM at 20km altitude.

It doesn't mean it'll do anything near that against low altitude ABTs. Further, you do not engage at max range unless you must, since that would constitute a waste of missiles.

[Feuerfalke]

The shape is actually more a upside-down umbrella, with maximum range achieved against high flying targets. It has worked this way since Lock On (most likely even since Flanker 1 or 2).

 

You mean it is in LO as opposed to RL, right? Just to be sure ;)

 

I remember a statement from FC that the problem could not be solved that fuel for missiles was calculate for travel over ground, not time in flight. It would stress the importance of a new engine, if this still is the case. :(

[MBot]

You mean it is in LO as opposed to RL, right? Just to be sure ;)

 

I remember a statement from FC that the problem could not be solved that fuel for missiles was calculate for travel over ground, not time in flight. It would stress the importance of a new engine, if this still is the case. :(

 

No, Lock On got it right. The range of SAMs increased with target altitude. Which is correct, since the missile will be affected by a lot less aerodynamic resistance in the thin air up high.

[2win_TOWR]

I`ve noticed when trying out some editor created scenarios that Sams (especially S-300) is not firing missile at an enemy aircraft until its almost over its head :doh: Its a complete group of vehicles (radar, launcher) staying still at the beach and a group of enemy F-15 is coming towards it from a distance of 200km, 2000m altitude from the sea (so there is no mountains to help them stay undetected) and you would assume that S-300 will fire at 100+ km and the 15s won`t know what hit them but that`s not what`s really happening :mad: The AI of the sam group is set to highest level so these motherf....s are not just gathering sun light and watching the girls on the beach, but this doesnt seem to help them use their long range missiles as they should. I haven`t tried this scenario with Patriot,Buk, or other medium or long range sams. But i just have the feeling that they will do the same. Any idea?

 

 

Hi,

 

Question is, what skill level do you give those units?

 

In this SIM a lot depends on this setting. You have to know, average skill level has just almost half of the capability that excellent level has. (And this applies for every unit in game)

 

Look at the ....\1C\Eagle Dynamics\Ka-50\Scripts\AI "skill_factors.lua".

 

"Excellent" skill has a factor of 1.0, which means, it is capable to detect targets at Max. Range

 

[MISSILE_LAUNCH_REACTION_DELAY_FACTOR] = 0.0,

--DETECTION

[VISUAL_AND_OPTIC_DETECITON_DIST_FACTOR] = 1.0,

[VISUAL_AND_OPTIC_DETECITON_TIME_FACTOR] = 1.0,

[RADAR_DETECTION_TIME_TO_SCAN_PERIOD_COEFF] = 2,

"Average" skill has just a factor of 0.55 and so on, which means, its capability to detect an enemy is almost halved.

[MISSILE_LAUNCH_REACTION_DELAY_FACTOR] = 7.0,

--DETECTION

[VISUAL_AND_OPTIC_DETECITON_DIST_FACTOR] = 0.55,

[VISUAL_AND_OPTIC_DETECITON_TIME_FACTOR] = 2.0,

[RADAR_DETECTION_TIME_TO_SCAN_PERIOD_COEFF] = 4,

Edited January 21, 2009 by 2win_TOWR

[Feuerfalke]

No, Lock On got it right. The range of SAMs increased with target altitude. Which is correct, since the missile will be affected by a lot less aerodynamic resistance in the thin air up high.

 

As fuel usually burns out before the maximum effective range or altitude is reached, I doubt the maximum effective envelope looks like an upside-down umbrella.

 

I'm rather with GGTharos in this, as the umbrella for a SAM always includes a less-effective altitude below the designed parameters.

 

What is not said in this answer though was my central statement: Measures are taken with maximum effective range horizontal and vertical. So engaging a target at maximum range AND maximum altitude is surely not the best idea (as opposed to circumstances Mbot describes, btw)

 

Let's not forget, that the burntime of a SAM-engine is limited and priority us usually to get to speeds quickly, rather than to start slow and fly a long time. (at least AFAIK)

[MBot]

Another factor that is possibly modeled. Increased skill level could actaually decrease the distance at which the SAM will fire because it increases PK. If you have a plane that is approaching you anyway, why not wait until he is closer and your missiles has more energy avalable for the intercept?

[2win_TOWR]

Another factor that is possibly modeled. Increased skill level could actaually decrease the distance at which the SAM will fire because it increases PK. If you have a plane that is approaching you anyway, why not wait until he is closer and your missiles has more energy avalable for the intercept?

 

You are absolutely right!

[GGTharos]

I'm rather with GGTharos in this, as the umbrella for a SAM always includes a less-effective altitude below the designed parameters.

 

Actually my argument is very similar to MBot's, but the final conclusion is that your high altitude SAM (or any missile system) will have less useful low-altitude range than high-altitude range, for many reasons. Even if you think of a high-altitude aircraft, it can't maneuver at max g easily to evade the missile for example.

 

What is not said in this answer though was my central statement: Measures are taken with maximum effective range horizontal and vertical. So engaging a target at maximum range AND maximum altitude is surely not the best idea (as opposed to circumstances Mbot describes, btw)

It isn't the best idea, it's just how the sim does it, unfortunately.

 

Let's not forget, that the burntime of a SAM-engine is limited and priority us usually to get to speeds quickly, rather than to start slow and fly a long time. (at least AFAIK)

Depends on the SAM. For example, IIRC the NIKE had a booster to get it to altitude and then the main engine would fire as it dove towards the target.

 

Patriot/S300 does something similar IRL, depending on the target profile, except it doesn't have a booster - both missiles have a huge mass of fuel (700lbs + ) to burn for the ten seconds of the all-boost phase, AFAIK.

 

They will be traveling at mach 5 well before this fuel is exhausted.

 

In short if you really want to see how ballistic flight would look for those missiles, you need minizap or a program you can write on your own to do the computations.

 

You will then see that these missiles have much shorter ranges than you'd think at low altitudes.

 

Again, like I said, IRL a Patriot battery will aim to engage you at 30km, and then again twice at 20km if you somehow survived the first shot.

Edited January 21, 2009 by GGTharos

[topol-m]

I`was using excelent AI on the sams. I`m going to make new tests at different altitudes and we`ll see if that is changing significantly the range of S-300.

[GGTharos]

Try sending a MiG-25 at 15km altitude towards it, doing 1200kts ;)

[Feuerfalke]

No doubt about the boosters, but that's not really the point.

 

The thing is energy and in this MBots comment differs from what we're talking about.

 

Many SAMs (and missiles in general, btw) build up speed and altitude when engaging over long distances, so they can trade in both for range after their fuel is used up.

 

If this is true for SAMs and they have to bow to our realities physics, I honestly doubt the effective radius resembles an upside down umbrella, as this would indicate the maximum engagement-range is in this example at 200km and 50,000ft, while it is not able to engage targets above the launcher by far up to the same altitude.

Or in other words: It can engage targets at 200km at 50,000ft but not at 200km and 40,000ft, though it would take less energy to advance to this altitude?

 

I'm always open to learn. Maybe you can post a link. All informations I can find assume a normal umbrella-shape.

[topol-m]

GGTharos i`ve tried your scenario: 2Mig-25 at 15000m altitude 200km distance, 2000kph speed. S-300 fired missiles when the migs were approximately 60 km away. Both shot down. Even at that altitude and speed the firing range is almost 3 times smaller than the s-300 specifications. They had "genius" inteligence but that didn`t helped the fire sooner.

[GGTharos]

Here is a link:

 

http://ed-thelen.org/flight.html

Also check out the rest of the site. It is for an older SAM, but this one was basically 'long range'.

 

And topol, after checking with minizap, this is the correct range for a straight line shot.

You get about 100-150km on a ballistic shot depending on the choice of flight path, but a choice of flight paths is not programmed into DCS SAMs.

[topol-m]

Are you planing of creating this feature for the Sams in future? I think i`ve seen this in other sims. It will make missile behavior much more realistic.