Native OpenXR (with mbucchia fix) vs SteamVR: reprojection question

[YoYo]

2 hours ago, Sile said:

Recently I'm reading many rumors about MS discontinuing WMR/VR, HP leaving the Market, ... employees being laid off. I'm not sure if an update is still in the pipeline or on top priority.

On a personal note i hope mbucchia isn't affected by all these developments. Such a great, dedicated and helpful developer for our community. I wish him only the best!

 

That sounds a bit pessimistic . Mainly problem according me that new headsets recived wireless (without better resolution and FOV improvements, etc) and in this directions the market goes which is wrong way according me (notice the new prices of Oculus, HTC etc). This assumption is a mistake, because the costs have increased mercilessly, almost 2x compared to, for example, the new HP Reverb G2. I'm afraid that this will only deepen the deficit and instead of reducing the niche, it will increase it (main reason new proces and battery health). For people who play simulation, racing, swimming, etc. A cable set without a station like WMR is still a great solution, because we sit on chairs anyway so we dont need it and the cable still provides the fastest link, which is important in the our simulations. In general, I believe that the new assumptions are wrong, and the direction of VR development is currently going in the wrong direction, which may convince some providers to exit the market. However, I will be very surprised if it turns out that HP will actually leave the VR market. After all, their kit is one of the most popular and cost-effective kits and gives the best experience (and I tested many devices, probably 7 including the Pimax 8XR).

[YoYo]

On 2/2/2023 at 6:09 PM, mbucchia said:

Thanks all, your observations confirm that the fix I discussed earlier (in the MSFS thread) should be satisfactory for you once it is rolled out.

It could be interesting too for You. Ok, no DCS, but 1.2.4 in MSFS, I see stretch the image through reprojection on (on rotor of Guimbal Cabri G2 copter from inside is very visible and annoying). But I switch OpenXr to SteamVR and again - near no artefacts. Looks very good. So this part from SteamVR helps a lot for good effect for MR and to have near no noticable image stratification. Maybe its a good way for 1.2.5!? 

So, I never saw MSFS with MR on so smoother with this, so SteamVR > OpenXR, this was WOW for me. I think its a good idea to implement those solutions to Toolkit if its possible :)!

Edited February 11, 2023 by YoYo

[GCDV31]

On 2/2/2023 at 3:49 PM, Sile said:

After further testing of the following three VR Flavours for my G2 with regard to Motion Smoothing / Reprojection (MR) i see the following. (Didn't test opencomposite any more.)

OpenVR -> SteamVR -> WMR4SteamVR -> WMR:

+ MR good 

OpenXR native -> SteamVR -> WMR4SteamVR -> WMR:

+ MR good 

OpenXR native -> WMR:

- MR not as good as SteamVR ones. 
A good test is the F-16 Persian Gulf AAR Quick Mission. Fast rolling of the aircraft produces very noticable jittering of the cockpit side frame when viewed against the cloud with OpenXR->WMR. Same with objects moving very fast against the terrain or clouds. With any SteamVR "MR" these effects are very subtle. E.g. only a very small seam of the cockpit side frame jitters slightly when rolling fast.

Another test is showing the semi transparent DCS fps graph overlay with RCTRL+Pause. The overlay jitters very noticable when rolling the aircraft with OpenXR->WMR, but not with any SteamVR MR.

Didn't notice a difference between OpenVR->SteamVR... and OpenXR->SteamVR. 

Thank you.

 

Hi @Sile and every body, I have an G2 and I have ghosting effect with OpenXRtoolkit and  --force_enable_VR --force_OpenXR. I'm lost with OpenXR(native), Open VR, Steam VR WMR4SteamVR,...

Could you explain to me how you run the game with OpenVR -> SteamVR -> WMR4SteamVR -> WMR: or OpenXR native -> SteamVR -> WMR4SteamVR -> WMR ? where do I click on what?

Currently I have only 2 way to launch the game open (beta stand-alone DCS version) :

Use DCS shortcut with --force_enable_VR --force_OpenXR and active enable Openxr tollkit

Or use the normal DCS shortcut and STEAM VR launches it self.

In both cases nullI leave openXR activeted in openxr WMR (see picture).

There are not ghosting image with STEAMVR. But FPS is low around 45FPS, where I have to modify SS to increase FPS ?

And last question, I  found this parameters (WMR for STEAM VR, see picture) in STEAMVR. Does it have impacts on DCS ?

nullThank you

 

[Sile]

In this post (second post in linked thread) u can see how to setup DCS and VR and use differtent Runtimes / APIs (link sometimes doesn't work. It's the second post of the whole thread. Author: mbucchia):

In short:

1) no command line Parameter or --force_steam_VR:   OpenVR -> SteamVR -> WMR4SteamVR -> WMR
2) --force_enable_VR --force_OpenXR: OpenXR native -> SteamVR -> WMR4SteamVR -> WMR:        OR        OpenXR native -> WMR *)

*) The second path 2) uses the SteamVR Runtime when u "Set SteamVR as OpenXR Runtime" in SteamVR Settings - Developer. This gives me similar results like the 1) OpenVR path.
2) uses the WMR Runtime (OpenXR native -> WMR) when u click "Set as active Runtime" in OpenXR Tools for WMR. Not in the toolkit, the app that you posted a screenshot from in your above reply).
So you can switch between the runtimes by fetching them in the corresponding settings app. API is either WMR or SteamVR. When SteamVR is set, WMR get's unset. And vice versa.

 

I suspect u have no ghosting with SteamVR because Motion Smoothing is enabled.
When it activates it is normal to only see half of the headset fps (90 / 2 = 45) because of how SteamVR Motion Smoothing works.

To get Motion Reprojection working for the OpenXR native -> WMR Path u need to set it form "Automatic" to "Always on" in the OpenXR Tools for WMR - below your Supersampling Setting.
It's imporant to use OpenXR Toolkit 1.2.4 to avoid DCS crashes with MR on.

 

Ah and on your last question concerning WMR for SteamVR. Yes. Has an effect.
It enables, disables, automates Motion Smoothing when SteamVR is in the VR path. And i have the option enables that says to improve GPU memory usage, but not sure on the benefit of this one.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Sile

[Joe1978]

I join those who have that ghosting with objects at high speed with OpenXR.

In the F1 cockpit for example, the effect is very annoying when taxiing; the side reading lights don´t stop moving/blinking constantly just like when you fly very close to the ground at high speed. On the sides of the canopy the effect is very noticeable.

I am using OpexXR+tool Open XR+tool Kit. Please Would you give me any hint to mitigate this?

Motion Reprojection working "Always on" 

Failing that, I will go back to Steam VR again since despite having a slightly lower performance, I  haven´t this unpleasant effect

[Sile]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb Joe1978:

I join those who have that ghosting with objects at high speed with OpenXR.

In the F1 cockpit for example, the effect is very annoying when taxiing; the side reading lights don´t stop moving/blinking constantly just like when you fly very close to the ground at high speed. On the sides of the canopy the effect is very noticeable.

I am using OpexXR+tool Open XR+tool Kit. Please Would you give me any hint to mitigate this?

Motion Reprojection working "Always on" 

Failing that, I will go back to Steam VR again since despite having a slightly lower performance, I  haven´t this unpleasant effect

Motion Reprojection with WMR Runtime / OpenXR currently produces this effects. According to mbucchia there is a possible fix in the pipline - described in MSFS Forum - but no ETA.

I'm currently using the OpenVR->SteamVR... path because of this. Or try the OpenXR->SteamVR... path so u can use OpenXR Toolkit.

Disabling MR is not an option for me.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Sile

[YoYo]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:21 PM, YoYo said:

It could be interesting too for You. Ok, no DCS, but 1.2.4 in MSFS, I see stretch the image through reprojection on (on rotor of Guimbal Cabri G2 copter from inside is very visible and annoying). But I switch OpenXr to SteamVR and again - near no artefacts. Looks very good. So this part from SteamVR helps a lot for good effect for MR and to have near no noticable image stratification. Maybe its a good way for 1.2.5!? 

So, I never saw MSFS with MR on so smoother with this, so SteamVR > OpenXR, this was WOW for me. I think its a good idea to implement those solutions to Toolkit if its possible :)!

 

@mbucchia did you saw this my previouse post? Any comments  ? Its nice find I think, now I fly MSFS with OpenXR/Toolkit + SteamVR reprojection, but it would be nice to have it in the tool just not using SteamVR. It will solve this problem in DCS as well. Thx!

Edited February 17, 2023 by YoYo

[Joe1978]

hace 1 hora, Sile dijo:

Motion Reprojection with WMR Runtime / OpenXR currently produces this effects. According to mbucchia there is a possible fix in the pipline - described in MSFS Forum - but no ETA.

I'm currently using the OpenVR->SteamVR... path because of this. Or try the OpenXR->SteamVR... path so u can use OpenXR Toolkit.

Disabling MR is not an option for me.

 

Thanks Sile. I'll dig a little more.

I have to assess if the gains with OpenXR compensate for those "ghost" effects. I admit that for some time now, SteamVR was working quite well for me.

[mbucchia]

9 hours ago, YoYo said:

@mbucchia did you saw this my previouse post? Any comments  ? Its nice find I think, now I fly MSFS with OpenXR/Toolkit + SteamVR reprojection, but it would be nice to have it in the tool just not using SteamVR. It will solve this problem in DCS as well. Thx!

 

I saw but I do not understand your messages.

Motion reprojection has nothing to do with OpenXR Toolkit so your request is quite confusing.

[YoYo]

14 hours ago, mbucchia said:

I saw but I do not understand your messages.

Motion reprojection has nothing to do with OpenXR Toolkit so your request is quite confusing.

Of course, technically Im not able to explain it, but what was given earlier, releasing OpenXR through SteamVR delays with MR action are much smaller than with OpenXR itself. You have previously given an example that something is created and tested with MR for MSFS and smaller artifacts (like it was on those videos). So I wanted to show how it is in this case with SteamVR as part of solution. Thank You for your support!

[Sile]

The goal is to run OpenXR API with WMR Runtime without SteamVR overhead and good MR.

Not sure what u want to achive?!
Possible fixes have been communicated an showcased in the MSFS forum thread and are in the pipeline according to mbucchia.

So all we can do ist wait. Wait for WMR Update, DCS Multithreading and DLSS support.
I'm quite excited for coming changes currently and sometimes i dream of running DCS without the need for motioin smoothing and with > 90 fps, thanks to DLSS and Multithreading...  

Edited February 18, 2023 by Sile

[mbucchia]

8 hours ago, YoYo said:

releasing OpenXR through SteamVR delays with MR action are much smaller than with OpenXR itself

8 hours ago, YoYo said:

how it is in this case with SteamVR as part of solution

I'm sorry, but sentences like these _do not compute_. I cannot help you when I literally do not understand any of your messages

 

Maybe this will help: the things I have shown on the other forum, the 1st one is me taking parts of the SteamVR algorithm to improve our native OpenXR one. The 2nd one is another improvement.

Edited February 18, 2023 by mbucchia

[YoYo]

36 minutes ago, mbucchia said:

Maybe this will help: the things I have shown on the other forum, the 1st one is me taking parts of the SteamVR algorithm to improve our native OpenXR one. The 2nd one is another improvement.

That's what I thought, maybe I wasn't precise. :0