[CHK] RWR knows an incoming missile is alive even though the missile has lost track.

[eletrobull]

 

• Detailed description

When an incoming enemy missile gets notched, the RWR indication "sticks", however the warning remains until missile destroys itself or moves out of the field of view of the RWR sensors. This affects all Fox 3's, A120 and SD-10 are easier to have this demonstrated. This has been a long standing issue, I think this is why most people find it hard to notch in the JF-17.

• How to reproduce

Simple just try and notch a missile as early as possible, notice how the RWR missile is stuck just fore or aft of the 3 - 9 line of the aircraft. Yet the missile warning indication and sound still goes off.

 

See video below that demonstrates this and the tacview attached.

Track files will be useless here since different hardware will make the AI behave different.

 

Tacview-20230321-073530-DCS-JF-17 Thunder A2A Short Caucasus.zip.acmi

Edited March 25, 2023 by uboats

[AeriaGloria]

Interesting, makes me feel better about not being able to notch. And the mod to add 3/9 lines to HSD wouldn’t help either 

[uboats]

so once missile got notched, the "missile" hud text and voice warning went off, but the indicator symbol on HSD remained there, i.e at 3 or 9 clock pos (once notched, and then you change your heading, would the symbol move on HSD or still remains at 3 or 9 clock as where it was notched?)

[eletrobull]

6 hours ago, uboats said:

(once notched, and then you change your heading, would the symbol move on HSD or still remains at 3 or 9 clock as where it was notched?)

In the video the first and last notching defences in the video the symbol moves in the HSD since I over turned, so this is fine.

 

7 hours ago, uboats said:

so once missile got notched, the "missile" hud text and voice warning went off, but the indicator symbol on HSD remained there, i.e at 3 or 9 clock pos

Incorrect, so once the missile got notched, the "missile" HUD text and voice warning remained with the flashing Indicator symbol on the HSD.

I guess the expected outcome should be, once missile is notched there should be no "missile" HUD text, no voice warning and no indicator on HSD.

Idea: However having the Indicator remain solid for a set period of time (like 8 seconds) before being removed. Also being removed on new spike from missile.

[Muchocracker]

If you are still within the seekers FoV, then you're still getting hit with emissions and It's going to keep setting off the RWR, this is basic functions. It doesn't know if the missile has lost you or not.

If the indication doesn't change azimuth as you turn the jet then that is a separate issue. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Muchocracker

[Pikey]

The missile's radar is active and looking for you but can't see you because you are filtered out by being in a doppler beam lower to the ground and thus filtered from other ground reflections.

It doesn't mean your RWR can't detect the missiles active radar screaming out in your direction.

If there's something else going on I completely missed it.

[Pikey]

As with the fore or aft of the 3-9 line and the way it updates.
There were a couple of recorrections in the notch, maybe 3 degrees of tuning.
On the RWR there's a brief delay in the update of the missiles direction, here is the first, a 45 degree turn towards:
null

The RWR M icon disappears during the bank. It reappears once level. This would be expected, the lenses for the rwr have a cone looking out that are not covering a complete bubble around the plane.

Additionally, the RWR is performing according to some secret tech with <2 degrees accuracy of azimuth tracking inside less than one second of detection and update. Clearly overtuned and working too well since the cone of the missiles radar seeker, even if its an aperture of a few degrees (Radars typically have 3 +/- 2, is still a few degrees of possible azimuth flexibility that it would be absolutely impossible for the RWR to distinguish)

By anyone's argument, either the most expensive tech of the HTS pod is being outperformed by a Chinese copy to a factor of 1000x the resolution and speed (1000? really? my HTS pod cant even get <5nm after 5mins!), or in fact this is just gaming artifacts left in because no one wants to damage the meta and risk people actually being faced with getting killed by missiles because they can repeat an A>B>C process.

Time to chase up ED on the RWR natural innacuracy feature methinks...

 

[Muchocracker]

lol. Maybe in another 5 years they'll do it 

[E-TF[101] Breeze]

The missile is looking Towards the ground, it shouldn't be giving a warning though?, i can understand it if it's at least facing in my aircraft's location but the RWR should be able to identify when a missile is tracking you and when it is not.

One more thing to add is that the SD-10 doesn't go away as soon as its notched, and so does the 120, this is only in the JF-17, when we notch the 120C or a SD-10 in a F-18 for example the warning will go away and the missile will fly by harmlessly, but in the JF-17 you get a warning the whole time and the missile Aspect is irreverent, so its clearly something with the JF-17.  



In this picture the missile is not even in gimble limit, its should most definitely not be giving a warning here.

Edited April 10, 2023 by E-TF[101] Breeze

[Napillo]

It will give a warning regardless - as it should, it's detecting radar from the missile, just because you are in a notch doesn't mean your rwr can't detect it. The missile isn't going to turn off its radar because you might be in a notch..

11 hours ago, E-TF[101] Breeze said:

In this picture the missile is not even in gimble limit, its should most definitely not be giving a warning here.

um, rwr sensors are not in your radar itself. They're spread around the aircraft, they can detect when they get radiation, even if it comes from behind...

[Napillo]

On 3/27/2023 at 2:33 AM, Pikey said:

the most expensive tech of the HTS pod is being outperformed by a Chinese copy to a factor of 1000x the resolution and speed

You know that technology didn't stop developing since the 90's... the F-16 that we have is using an RWR from 1991... so do I think that a RWR from 2012 can beat one from 1991? yea, lots more processing power available 21 years into the future. 

[Pikey]

2 hours ago, Napillo said:

You know that technology didn't stop developing since the 90's... the F-16 that we have is using an RWR from 1991... so do I think that a RWR from 2012 can beat one from 1991? yea, lots more processing power available 21 years into the future. 

The AN/ASQ-213 HARM targeting system was shipped in the 2000's, and is not a Radar Warning Reciever. It catalogs and triangulates emissions against a mapping system that fine tunes the location in 3 dimensions over time, beginning with several miles of possibility and getting down to high precision in range and azimuth depending on the aircraft movements, which allows missiles to be optimally flighted for range and direction for Harms GPS modes. What I said was that the RWR is more accurate in Azimuth than it. The plane we are referencings against is from exactly the same decade. Thank you for reading carefully.

[Napillo]

15 hours ago, Pikey said:

What I said was that the RWR is more accurate in Azimuth than it.

Right, because that targeting system is doing sensor fusion? in the sensor? The aircraft would do that, not the pod.

[ShadowFrost]

On 4/10/2023 at 3:41 PM, E-TF[101] Breeze said:

The missile is looking Towards the ground, it shouldn't be giving a warning though?, i can understand it if it's at least facing in my aircraft's location but the RWR should be able to identify when a missile is tracking you and when it is not.

One more thing to add is that the SD-10 doesn't go away as soon as its notched, and so does the 120, this is only in the JF-17, when we notch the 120C or a SD-10 in a F-18 for example the warning will go away and the missile will fly by harmlessly, but in the JF-17 you get a warning the whole time and the missile Aspect is irreverent, so its clearly something with the JF-17.  



In this picture the missile is not even in gimble limit, its should most definitely not be giving a warning here.

 

Thats probably a DCSism, side lobes and reflection off the ground could also trigger the RWR even if the target aircraft's RWR isn't within the exact FOV of the missile's seeker. I would not be anywhere near 100% confident that the seeker emissions are not making it to the aircraft RWR in some manner when at such close proximity both to the missile (possibility of sidelobes) and to terrain of which the missile is actively looking at (reflection). 

There is a video out there on youtube of F-15s getting warned about ~130 degrees off an SA-3? radar and the actual target's azimuth. IE, the non-targeted F-15s were northwest of an SA-3 and the SA-3 engaged another group to the east. Both flights got the warning. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by ShadowFrost

[eletrobull]

Would like an update to this issue please @uboats. It's been a while...

Edited October 22, 2023 by eletrobull

[uboats]

So I guess it’s actually recognized as missile by MAWS not RWR?

Actually we tried to check missile engine status but cannot get whether it’s on or off or its fuel level. But will try to do some tricky thing to “determine” whether its engine is still on.

 

Or I misunderstood it. If it’s for RWR, then I would wait for ED to complete their advanced RWR simulation and then solve this issue. So far we can only get limited status to “know” whether we are locked or just spot

Edited October 24, 2023 by uboats